Posted on 01/07/2010 12:11:03 PM PST by BluesDuke
The definition of irony would be the umpire Alomar spit on having the deciding vote as to whether he makes it into the hall of fame.
Another rumor/lawsuit is that he has full blown aids. No doubt his off field behavior might be contributory. Plus the fact that he was washed up by age 34.
But you raise an interesting corollary point: No umpires vote for the Hall of Fame. And you would think this is wrong, considering that umpires---for all their flaws---see at least as much of the greatest players as anyone else watching the game. Why shouldn't a John Hirschbeck (who's normally considered one of the best in the business in his own right) have a Hall of Fame vote?
For that matter, it would amaze you to know who else doesn't get to vote for the Hall of Fame. Why shouldn't Vin Scully have a vote? Why shouldn't Tim McCarver or other broadcasters who watch these teams day in, day out have a vote? Why shouldn't Bill James, whose analytical methods and approaches have revolutionised the way baseball is viewed and reviewed, have a Hall of Fame vote? Why shouldn't baseball's managers, incumbent and emeritus, have a vote? Why shouldn't writers such as Roger Angell (don't make the mistake of calling him baseball's Homer; Homer was ancient Greece's Roger Angell) who merely write for magazines without having had a daily baseball beat but who know probably more about the game than an awful lot of beat writers (how bright could the beat boys and girls have been if they could snub Alomar) have a vote? Why shouldn't George F. Will have a vote?
I don't mean to say that the franchise should go to every last human on the planet, and I sure wouldn't want to see the fans getting a Hall of Fame vote (considering what the fan vote has done to the All-Star Game I'd trust a fan vote about as far as I'd trust the federal government), but there should be more than just the Baseball Writers Association of America---whose membership rule is that you have to have covered a team daily, which leaves out too many who are at least as qualified to write about baseball---having a Hall of Fame vote.
Alomar will get in eventually — along with fellow second basemen Craig Biggio and Jeff Kent. Probably next year for Alomar — the only other real contenders on the ballot next year are Burt Blyleven (who shouldn’t get in at all) and Jeff Bagwell (who will get in, but likely not until 2012).
SnakeDoc
1. Hornsby
2. Collins
3. Lajoie
4. Gehringer
5. Morgan
6. Sandberg
7. Alomar
8. Robinson
9. Frisch
10. Carew
Does Kent make that list? Not sure. Does Biggio? I don't think so. But Kent, definitely, and Biggio, probably, will be HOF material when they become eligible. Alomar gets in next year, easily, no question.
Were Whitaker and Grich too soon dismissed from HOF consideration? Probably.
Right now, Utley is the best in baseball.
Another rumor/lawsuit is that he has full blown aids.Would you really like to see a Hall of Fame vote based upon a rumour or a lawsuit?
No doubt his off field behavior might be contributory.His off-field behaviour? Alomar was considered one of the class acts of baseball off the field. In the clubhouse, well, let's put it this way: When Alomar became a Cleveland Indian, John Hirschbeck's umpiring crew came to Jacob Fields to work a series and Hirschbeck, who'd become friendly with the stadium's clubhouse manager, couldn't stand it anymore: what, he asked the clubhouse manager, was Roberto Alomar really like.
"He's one of the two nicest people I've ever met here," the clubhouse manager replied. "And you're the other one."
That, by the way, was what provoked Hirschbeck and Alomar to go beyond the apology Alomar gave the season after the infamous incident. The two men patched it up and became friends. More than friends. Guess who hit the ground running for the foundation Hirschbeck's family established to raise money to fight the rare brain disease that killed Hirschbeck's young son.
Plus the fact that he was washed up by age 34.As if what he achieved before he was thirty-four suddenly becomes irrelevant? Granting the minimum ten-season eligibility to Cooperstown canonisation, the salient point is that the quality of your career counts. It doesn't say, "You have to have played past thirty-four without a career decline." (If it did, Dizzy Dean, Sandy Koufax, and Kirby Puckett wouldn't be Hall of Famers, and Joe DiMaggio would be a squeaker candidate.)
Alomar will get in eventually — along with fellow second basemen Craig Biggio and Jeff Kent. Probably next year for Alomar — the only other real contenders on the ballot next year are Burt Blyleven (who shouldn’t get in at all) and Jeff Bagwell (who will get in, but likely not until 2012).My call is Alomar gets in next year. I'm willing to bet Bert Blyleven will get in next year, and he does deserve the honour. (He's a career-value Hall of Famer; as a matter of fact, he meets the criteria conjugated by Bill James as an average Hall of Famer by meeting 50 of the Hall of Fame Standards for pitchers where the average Hall of Famer meets . . . 50. On the Jamesian Hall of Fame pitching monitor, the average Hall of Fame pitcher scores 100. Blyleven scores 120.)
I think Biggio and Kent will get in, too, though I'm almost willing to bet Biggio will go in first only because Kent has a lot lower reputation for character than a lot of candidates will bring to the table.
Eh? The dude had 60 shutouts. Thats more than Mike Mussina's number of complete games. Blyleven played for crappy teams often but still had almost 300 wins.
Blyleven deserves it more than Alomar, IMO.
In all seriousness (my first post WAS a joke) it does not surprise me to hear that Mr. Hirschbeck supports Alomar.
And I agree with you that ceratin umpires should be allowed to vote on the Hall of Fame. They are, after all closer to the game than anyone other than the players themselves.
Perhaps it would also be appropriate for the Hall of Fame to develop an application/resume process (to be reviewed by the Veteran’s Committee?) by which well-credentialed “others” could apply to get a Hall of Fame (this would allow interested parties like the Scullys, Jameses and Wills of the world to have a crack at getting a “vote”).
I am a baseball fan- I am also a baseball purist. So I will tell you straight-up: I don't care how good Alomar was. He was also a classless POS. Players who spit on umpires and insult their families don't deserve to be in the hall of fame.
You may disagree. If so, I expect you to start lobbying for Pete Rose this very second.
Charles,
In defense of Biggio,
let me say, that he played the game.
Shut his mouth,
Didn’t get in trouble.
Was a credit to his team and the sport.
Was far above average.
And left the game better than when her arrived.
Unlike so very many others in the hall.
JMO
Listen, I saw him play in Baltimore and he was great, but the HOF is about being great for a long time. . In any event, he'll get in eventually, IMO.
I said I think Biggio will probably make the Hall. I just wouldn’t put him in the top TEN at 2b, that’s all. There are more than ten in the Hall.
Outstanding post. Wonderful points, all well taken.
Ryne Sandberg is an intriguing case. There's no question but what he's a Hall of Famer, but I wonder what his statistics would resemble if the Cubs had bothered themselves to bat him where his skill set should have had him batting. How many more runs batted in would he have nailed if he'd been batting third or cleanup, for which he clearly had the skills? How many more runs produced or runs created? The same question, by the way, could be applied to Mark Grace---who clearly had the skills of a number-two hitter, and who probably would have posted Hall of Fame-worthy statistics if he had been batted according to his skill set.
Easy enough. The Cubs weren't willing to think outside the proverbial box, and they batted each man according to his field position and its supposed lineup concurrency, and not according to each man's actual batting skills. And because they weren't willing to think outside the proverbial box, on that and on so many other matters, they kept Ryne Sandberg from putting up a more complete statistical accounting of his no-questions-asked greatness (and may have kept themselves from winning quite a few more games in the bargain) and Mark Grace from putting up a Hall of Fame case, period.
Rod Carew I'm not sure about. I can never decide whether he's overrated thanks to those gaudy batting averages, and he wasn't as sharp with the glove as his reputation. But he does belong in the discussion of the top ten.
Were Whitaker and Grich too soon dismissed from HOF consideration? Probably.
Bobby Grich may have been hurt the same way Mark Grace was. Lou Whitaker will probably end up getting in by way of the Veterans Committee in due course, though I think I know of one thing that might have hurt him with the baseball writers: he was damn fool enough, during the 1994 strike, to show up for a bargaining session in a stretch limousine. At a time when the writers were already blind enough not to recognise the real issue in that strike---that the owners pushed for it by trying to jam down the players' throat proposals that the players had already rejected, several times over, before the expiration of that bargaining agreement---and to slam the players accordingly, a player showing up for a barganining session in a stretch limousine was probably not the smartest move one could make. (Even Jack Morris---who showed up for a meeting with the Minnesota Twins in an expensive fur winter coat, during the earlier collusion years, when he ended up being forced back to Detroit when nobody else would sign him---wasn't that stupid.)
Chase Utley's on the Hall of Fame track, no questions asked. Whether he'll shake out as having been better than Morgan or Alomar is anyone's guess, but right now he's the best second baseman in baseball.
Blyleven was slightly above average for a long time. He was never even regarded as great when he was playing. He’s good — but not HOF material.
Alomar is likely the best all around 2nd baseman since Sandberg. Kent is a better hitter, and Biggio is in the ballpark as well — but Alomar likely gets the nod. Blyleven wasn’t even considered among the best pitchers in the game when he was playing.
SnakeDoc
Spitting on an umpire and then mocking said umpire's family difficulties might have something to do with it. I am a baseball fan- I am also a baseball purist. So I will tell you straight-up: I don't care how good Alomar was. He was also a classless POS. Players who spit on umpires and insult their families don't deserve to be in the hall of fame.
I refer you to what I wrote in late November, when Hirschbeck spoke up for Alomar as the Hall of Fame balloting began. I don't excuse Alomar but I think you ought to see the full story.
You may disagree. If so, I expect you to start lobbying for Pete Rose this very second.There is no comparison between Roberto Alomar, who was jobbed over one out-of-character incident, and Pete Rose. My views on Rose are on the record, by the way . . .
He had an awesome curve ball that looked like it rolled off a table. He was fun to watch.
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