Posted on 11/10/2009 11:55:00 AM PST by B-Chan
That's what I've always done...until you kept changing my (and others') comments.
Well, never let it be said that you lack for humility....
Another demonstrably false statement from Dr. Eckleburg, as is per usual.
By interjecting, you’re inviting upon yourself the spatter of the folks so motivated by hatred they cannot even refer to a church by its proper name.
Bologna, 1858: A police squad, acting on the orders of the Inquisitor, invades the home of a Jewish merchant, Momolo Mortara, wrenches his crying six-year-old son from his arms, and rushes him off in a carriage bound for Rome. His mother is so distraught that she collapses and has to be taken to a neighbor's house, but her weeping can be heard across the city. With this terrifying scene--one that would haunt this family forever--David I. Kertzer begins his fascinating investigation of the dramatic kidnapping, and shows how this now obscure saga would eventually contribute to the collapse of the Church's temporal power in Italy. As Edgardo's parents desperately search for a way to get their son back, they learn why he--out of all their eight children--was taken. Years earlier, the family's Catholic serving girl, fearful that the infant might die of an illness, had secretly baptized him (or so she claimed). Edgardo recovered, but when the story reached the Bologna Inquisitor, the result was his order for Edgardo to be seized and sent to a special monastery where Jews were converted into good Catholics. The Inquisitor's justification for taking the child was based in Church teachings: No Christian child could be raised by Jewish parents. The case of Edgardo Mortara became an international cause célèbre. Although such kidnappings were not uncommon in Jewish communities across Europe, this time the political climate had changed. As news of the family's plight spread to Britain, where the Rothschilds got involved, to France, where it mobilized Napoleon III, and even to America, public opinion turned against the Vatican. Refusing to return the child to his family, Pope Pius IX began to regard the boy as his own child. The fate of this one boy came to symbolize the entire revolutionary campaign of Mazzini and Garibaldi to end the dominance of the Catholic Church and establish a modern, secular Italian state. A riveting story which has been remarkably ignored by modern historians, The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara has been made into a play by Pulitzer and Oscar winning playwright, Alfred Uhry. It opened at Hartford Stage in 2002. A new version of the play will be performed at the Guthrie Theater, in Minneapolis, from Nov. 4 to Dec. 17, 2006.
Why, by pointing out the relevant parts of canon law which mandated the kidnapping.
I'm sure that cleared up the matter in a jiffy./sarc
An anti-Catholic fetishist like Kertzer certainly belongs on your reading list.
It didn’t end there either and probably still goes on. As late as the 1960’s, the Catholic Church in Canada and Australia and who knows where else, was forcefully removing native children from their parents and “making good Catholics” out of them. The result— children raped, murdered, suicide, alcoholism, drug addiction, broken families and lost individuals. And some people want it to come back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=809&letter=M
"... Refusing to return the child to his family, Pope Pius IX began to regard the boy as his own child..."
Sadly, we all can figure out what that most likely meant.
Something you just LOVE thinking and talking about.
People should watch the award-winning documentary now on DVD, "Deliver Us From Evil," which shows just how gracious the RCC is to its children. Especially when an "alter Christus" is involved.
Yeah. His “ward.”
I obviously don’t know the facts about the kidnapping, but such involuntary “conversions” by various European churches against Jewish children have been pretty common.
Indeed, there are specific words and doctrines related to Jewish people who do not know they are Jewish -— a very common phenominia in this day and time.
Various muslim interests now seek involuntary conversions against Christian or secular children in the USA. In California, for example, a conversion ceremony is (or was) part of the school curriculum.
It is wrong then and wrong now.
I don’t doubt Edgar grew up loving his captors -— they were probably nice to him and motivated -— in their minds -— by the goal of saving his soul from the “evils” of Judaism.
Your children (or my children) could likely be kidnapped and made into fine muslims by Osama Bin Laden.
It is a simple fact that children believe their care givers and grow to love them very much.
As for me, forced baptism, kidnapping, and a blase attitude towards the suffering of others (Edgar's family) is sufficient to make my blood boil.
like in “Batman and Robin”, complete with matching outfits, gold capes, red socks
“”You haven’t answered my questions.
Nor have you come to terms with what happened to Edgar Mortara when he was 6 years old.””
There is nothing to answer as far as I’m concerned and I have completely come to terms of what happened.
I see it as a beautiful case of what happens when the rules of Holy Mother Church are followed.
If Edgar had died immediately after he was Baptized he would have gone directly to heaven. The Catholic women caring for him knew that and did the right thing by baptizing him seeing he was very ill.
You obviously don’t agree and you’re entitled to believe whatever you want,dear friend.
Edgar personally admitted he believed he was being guided by supernatural grace
Here it is again...
Edgardo Levi-Mortara’s Testimony for Beatification of Pius IX - Rome, Italy (ZENIT.org)
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/pope025501.htm
§1656: The parents made a great effort to have their child again.
Edgar said...Eight days later, my parents presented themselves to the Institute of Neophytes to initiate the complex procedures to get me back in the family. As they had complete freedom to see me and talk with me, they remained in Rome for a month, coming every day to visit me. Needless to say, they tried every means to get me back — caresses, tears, pleas and promises. Despite all this, I never showed the slightest desire to return to my family, a fact which I do not understand myself, except by looking at the power of supernatural grace.
At this point, I will tell a story that shows the power of this grace. After serving Mass in Alatri for Canon Vincenzo Sarra (in whose home I was staying), upon returning to the sacristry with the priest, my parents suddenly appeared at the door. Instead of throwing myself in their arms, as would have been natural, I retreated, quite surprised, hiding under the priest’s chasuble. Because of this event, the people of Alatri were incensed at my parents, and the bishop thought it best to host me in his palace for eight days and also to avoid abduction by my parents. They became convinced of the uselessness of their efforts and thought it more prudent to return to Bologna.
I have nothing more to say and am not interested in any hypothetical scenario’s since it does not pertain to this case
I have read that Pius IX claimed to be following Benedict XIV's 1747 rule "On Baptism of Hebrews, Children and Adults," which itself was based on Canon 60 from the Fourth Council of Toledo (held 633). The canon stated that "force must not be used in baptism, but that those who had already received the sacrament must remain Christians and also avoid relations with unbaptised Jews; in cases where the children of unbaptized Jews had been baptized, the children were to be taken from them for Christian education" (Flannery, _The Anguish of the Jews_, pp. 75-76, my emphasis). That's quite a "but."
However, Jewbacca, you might be pleased to know that Benedict XIV's rule and Canon 60 are no longer in effect (since the advent of the Codex Iuris Canonici of 1917, which I have read supplants the old Corpus Iuris Canonici). Let's hope it stays that way.
However, to see where a similar tragedy almost occurred more recently, this time an France after WWII try looking up the case of the Finaly Brothers:
“”Canon 60 are no longer in effect””
This is true. You still cannot make a case for Edgar’s Baptism being forced by the Catholic women who did the right thing.
From
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2X.HTM
Pay special attention to sec. 2
Can. 868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:
1/ the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent;
2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.
§2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.
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