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To: Raycpa; metmom; betty boop; hosepipe; tacticalogic
Perhaps the physical can be explained as the result of natural forces yet we are left with the problem of recognizing that the time and place of these events have almost an infinite probability of occurring without an intelligent cause.

The third problem is the fact that there are witnesses. God may have performed miracles incognito but these miracles were witnessed.

Indeed. Thank you so much for sharing your insights!

And I'd like to add another to your list: namely, that many people cannot see the forest for the trees.

For example, DNA is a "tree." Information in the cosmos - both in relation to living things (e.g. DNA and language) and non-living things (e.g. physical laws and constants) - is a "forest."

Lurkers: information is the reduction of uncertainty (Shannon entropy) in the receiver (or molecular machine) as it goes from a before state to an after state.

There is no known origin for information in the universe.

Another example of a "tree" is self-organizing complexity in nature. The "forest" is that order cannot rise from chaos in an unguided physical system. Period. There are always guides to the system. Even at the root, the atheist must admit that space/time, physical causation and physical laws are guides to the system.

There is no physical origin for space/time and therefore physical causation.

Another example of a "tree" is randomness - stochastic methods are highly effective in physical sciences. The "forest" is that one cannot say something is random in the system when he doesn't know what the system "is."

The number and types of dimensions (spatial, temporal) are both unknown and unknowable.

To put it another way, an observer may look at a "tree" and conclude it is not a miracle. But if he could see the "forest" - he probably would call it a miracle.

958 posted on 01/07/2009 11:15:50 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop
[ The number and types of dimensions (spatial, temporal) are both unknown and unknowable. ]

True.. Now.. but may not be true in the future.. for some..
Or possibly partially knowable.. There could be dimensions(realms) "we" will never know..
Micro and Macro Universes are even possible..

The possibilies (of what can/could be) are endless..

962 posted on 01/07/2009 11:40:22 AM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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