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To: El Gato
Since Congress was not given the power to define Natural Born Citizen, but was given the power to define uniform rules for *naturalization*, it must be this power that Congress was exercising whenever it defined who shall be a citizen at birth. Thus such persons must be considered "naturalized at birth", rather than natural born, *unless* they also meet the requirements to be Natural born, as many, even most, do.

This explanation seems a bit tortured to me. It would seem less so if you could site the specific material from the founders that defines "natural born citizen". Despite many saying such exists, no one has yet published it on an FR thread, a very simple low overhead thing to do.

Why?

31 posted on 01/01/2009 11:24:21 PM PST by Jack Black (ping can't be a tag line, can it?)
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To: Jack Black
"Why didn't the founders think themselves to be natural born; they were all born on this continent?"

All of our Presidents were born on the North American continent, even those that were born prior to the Constitution and "grandfathered" in. If they were born here, why did they not consider themselves natural born? The only thing different between them and those born later was their "allegiance" by birth (and that of their parents) to Britain. I think the key to understanding the intention and application of "NaturalBornCitizen" can be found in discovering why they did not confer NBC status on themselves. Just being born here was not enough for them; should just being born in America be enough for us?

The key to understanding “natural born citizen” for purposes of being eligible to serve as President lies in the way the Founding Fathers were “grandfathered in”. You can see the distinction right there, The FF were born British same as Obama (Kenyan-British actually, through his father). The only born British (or foreign) people who qualify to be President are those who were US citizens at the time of the adoption of the US Constitution. This is written into the Constitution in the exception clause. Unless Barack is more than 200 years old, he doesn’t qualify under the exception clause and remains a British citizen via the allegiance his father held to Britain/Kenya.

. . .

Three classes of citizenship, not just twobr> Perkins v. Elg's importance is that it actually gives examples of what a Citizen of the U.S. is; what a native born American Citizen is; and what a natural born citizen of the U.S. is. THERE ARE 3 CLASSES of "CITIZEN" IN THE CASELAW. A natural born citizen is a person who is born of two U.S. citizen parents AND born in the mainland of U.S.

. . .

“At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country, of parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further, and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction, without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient, for everything we have now to consider, that all children, born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction, are themselves citizens.’ Minor v. Happersett (1874) 21 Wall. 162, 166-168.”

. . .

Consulting the Constitution, the OPERATIVE phrase of the 14th Amendment expressly states:

“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside ...”

It says “citizens” NOT “natural born citizens”.

In situations like this, SCOTUS has USUALLY devolved to ascertain what the “original intent” of the framers was ... What does the 14th Amendment mean and what is its intended scope, as introduced the United States Senate in 1866?

Sen. Jacob M. Howard (MI), who introduced it in the Senate, tells us (as it was being debated):

“The first amendment is to section one, declaring that all “persons born in the United States and Subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the States wherein they reside. I do not propose to say anything on that subject except that the question of citizenship has been fully discussed in this body as not to need any further elucidation, in my opinion. This amendment which I have offered is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country ... I concur entirely with the honorable Senator from Illinois [Senator Trumbull], in holding that the word “jurisdiction,” as here employed, ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, whether exercised by Congress, by the executive, or by the judicial department; that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now ...”

Sen. Lyman Trumbull, Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, author of the Thirteenth Amendment, inserted the phrase:

“... All persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens.’ That means ‘subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.’ What do we mean by ‘complete jurisdiction thereof?’ Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means ... Can you sue a Navajo Indian in court? Are they in any sense subject to the complete jurisdiction of the United States? By no means. We make treaties with them, and therefore they are not subject to our jurisdiction. If they were, we wouldn’t make treaties with them...It is only those persons who come completely within our jurisdiction, who are subject to our laws, that we think of making citizens; and there can be no objection to the proposition that such persons should be citizens ...”

Senator W. Williams further stated:

” ... In one sense, all persons born within the geographical limits of the United States are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, but they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States in every sense. Take the child of an ambassador. In one sense, that child born in the United States is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, because if that child commits the crime of murder, or commits any other crime against the laws of the country, to a certain extent he is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, but not in every respect; and so with these Indians. All persons living within a judicial district may be said, in one sense, to be subject to the jurisdiction of the court in that district, but they are not in every sense subject to the jurisdiction of the court until they are brought, by proper process, within the reach of the power of the court. I understand the words here, ‘subject to the jurisdiction of the United States,’ to mean fully and completely subject to the jurisdiction of the United States ...”

Rep. John Bingham of Ohio, considered the father of the Fourteenth Amendment, confirms the understanding and construction the framers used in regards to birthright and jurisdiction while speaking on civil rights of citizens in the House on March 9, 1866:
” ... I find no fault with the introductory clause [S 61 Bill], which is simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents [plural, meaning two] not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen...”

38 posted on 01/01/2009 11:44:43 PM PST by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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