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The Founding Fathers were Deists, So Is Mitt Romney's Mormonism keeping you from voting for him?
http://members.aol.com/TestOath/deism.htm ^

Posted on 02/06/2008 6:19:32 PM PST by klimeckg

click here to read article


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To: RKV

You can add me to the Deist list. Religion seems to be a good thing for many, but not me. There is no comparison to a Mormon by any stretch of the imagination.


201 posted on 02/07/2008 7:58:21 PM PST by Cold Heat (NO! (you can infer any meaning you choose))
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To: hedgetrimmer
Not in the slightest. I am a Christian. I am not interested in historic revisionism nor do I think it is needed to show that this nation was founded by men of deep and profound faith, mostly Christian faith.

But why try to claim Franklin was anything other than a Deist? That is what he said he was in his own autobiography.

Why try to claim Pain was a Christian when he was decidedly anti-religious (his greatest defect)?

Why try to claim that Jefferson was a believer in Jesus Christ as the son of God when he was not?

It is important to me that the TRUTH is reflected. Lies serve no purpose. Christians are well represented by the truth.

Why is important to you to try to lie about history and take source a document that takes the founders words out of context and sets up Deism as a straw-man for atheism?

202 posted on 02/07/2008 8:09:26 PM PST by allmendream ("A Lyger is pretty much my favorite animal."NapoleonD)
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To: allmendream
Why is important to you to try to lie about history

I didn't.
203 posted on 02/07/2008 8:16:38 PM PST by hedgetrimmer (I'm a billionaire! Thanks WTO and the "free trade" system!--Hu Jintao top 10 worst dictators)
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To: allmendream

Here is the title of the article.

The Founding Fathers were Deists

I merely argued that this was not true. You have supported me by claiming only some were deists.

I don’t see any reason to beat this to death.


204 posted on 02/07/2008 8:19:02 PM PST by hedgetrimmer (I'm a billionaire! Thanks WTO and the "free trade" system!--Hu Jintao top 10 worst dictators)
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To: hedgetrimmer
Your source certainly lied about history.

Quoting Paine as confirmation of this nations Christian heritage almost as disgusting as Thomas Pain calling the Bible ‘lies’.

This tactic might impress people who have no knowledge of Thomas Pain or American history; but what happens when they find out that it was all lies? What will that do to their faith if the people they see promoting the idea of our Christian heritage (which is truth) are found to be liars about the specifics?

205 posted on 02/07/2008 8:27:52 PM PST by allmendream ("A Lyger is pretty much my favorite animal."NapoleonD)
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To: allmendream

I didn’t claim anything.


206 posted on 02/07/2008 8:41:20 PM PST by hedgetrimmer (I'm a billionaire! Thanks WTO and the "free trade" system!--Hu Jintao top 10 worst dictators)
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To: allmendream

Are you claiming the title of this article is correct? That the founders (not a few, not some, but THE founders) were Deists is correct?


207 posted on 02/07/2008 8:42:47 PM PST by hedgetrimmer (I'm a billionaire! Thanks WTO and the "free trade" system!--Hu Jintao top 10 worst dictators)
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To: hedgetrimmer
It is untrue that ALL of the founders were Deists. It is just as untrue when your source said NONE of the founders were Deists.

You sourced a blatant lie. I sought to correct the record with the founders own words that contradicted its assertions. You somehow thought that meant I thought it was important to downplay our Christian heritage. I wonder why you think it would be a good thing to let an inaccuracy stand.

Franklin said he was a Deist.
Jefferson didn’t believe in the divinity of Jesus.
Pain said the Bible was ‘lies’.

You source tried to claim them all as examples of this nations Christian heritage, and when I objected, you asked if I thought it was important to downplay the Christianity of our Founders. No. I find it important to correct blatant lies about our history and our founders.

Should I just shut up and let people lie about History? What purpose does that serve?

208 posted on 02/07/2008 8:58:57 PM PST by allmendream ("A Lyger is pretty much my favorite animal."NapoleonD)
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To: allmendream

Whew! Are you done yet?


209 posted on 02/07/2008 9:10:43 PM PST by hedgetrimmer (I'm a billionaire! Thanks WTO and the "free trade" system!--Hu Jintao top 10 worst dictators)
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To: hedgetrimmer
Only until the next time someone wants to say something anyone who knows American history should know to be false, is demonstrably false, and I can easily find a quote showing it to be false.

Until then, yes. I am done.

210 posted on 02/07/2008 9:32:42 PM PST by allmendream ("A Lyger is pretty much my favorite animal."NapoleonD)
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To: hedgetrimmer
Is it important to you to downplay the Christianity of the Founders?

YES!

The more screwed up we can make 'orthodox' Christianity look; the better we position Mormonism to join the club.

We only have to cow the ignorant and marginalize the knowing.

--MormonDude(Haven't you figgered out our tactics by NOW?)

211 posted on 02/08/2008 4:38:01 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: allmendream
Why is important to you to try to lie about history and take source a document that takes the founders words out of context and sets up Deism as a straw-man for atheism?

Yeah!

It's bad enough that we LDS Organization® members have to deal with truth about history and showing our Founder's words IN context!

--MormonDude(Saddened by Mitt's chickening out. You'd think that an ex-Bishop would have had a bit more sense to not waste 37 Million on a fruitless campaign. Just THINK of all the stuff that could have filled Deseret's larders!!!)

212 posted on 02/08/2008 4:41:55 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: allmendream
Only until the next time someone wants to say something anyone who knows American history should know to be false, is demonstrably false, and I can easily find a quote showing it to be false.

Yes, I said that "THE founders were Deists" is false.
213 posted on 02/08/2008 6:35:46 AM PST by hedgetrimmer (I'm a billionaire! Thanks WTO and the "free trade" system!--Hu Jintao top 10 worst dictators)
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To: hedgetrimmer
I took issue with your source, which said NONE of the founders were Deists. This is demonstrably false. Several of the Founders quoted in your source were either not Christian (except by their own definition) or thorough Deists by their own words. It was when I attempted to correct the record that you took issue with ME and asked if I thought it was important to downplay the Christianity of our founders.

Your issue is with the truth, not with me. Your source was garbage and full of lies and distortions.

You cannot deny the truth of the words of the founders I quoted, so you attack the messenger as someone who wants to deny the deep religious conviction of our founders; which I would never do and did not.

Why do you source lies and then take offense when I source the truth?

214 posted on 02/08/2008 6:47:44 AM PST by allmendream ("A Lyger is pretty much my favorite animal."NapoleonD)
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To: Elsie
Nothing I said would make orthodox Christianity look bad.

What would make orthodox Christianity look bad is historic revisionism being embraced by its adherent, and those who tell the actual truth about history attacked as being anti-Christian.

How is lying about our founders not trying to ‘cow the ignorant’; how is attacking someone who tries to correct what was said about some of our founders not ‘marginalize(ing) the knowing’?

And I am FAR from being a Mormon. I share Mark Twain’s opinion about the Book of Mormon.

“The book seems to be merely a prosey detail of imaginary history with the Old Testament for a model followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament.” Mark Twain

215 posted on 02/08/2008 6:52:36 AM PST by allmendream ("A Lyger is pretty much my favorite animal."NapoleonD)
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To: klimeckg
You asked...”There you have it, what makes Romney’s Mormonism any different than Jefferson’s [religion]?”

I have thought about your question and I think I know one of the answers. Jefferson and the Founders were suspicious of ecclesiastic authority into secular matters.

Madison was a deeply Christian man, yet he said....

“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.”

-— James Madison, “A Memorial and Remonstrance”, 1785

This I think is key. Jefferson was a law and religion unto himself, a freethinker. People called him an atheist or anti-Christian during his lifetime, but nobody thought he was taking orders from a foreign or religious power.

I think a more apt analogy is one that has been used before; JFK. Both Catholicism and Mormonism have an established hierarchy of ecclesiastic authority. Americans were suspicious of the idea that our President might be taking orders from Rome. I believe the same sentiment makes Americans suspicious of the idea that out President might be taking orders from Salt Lake City. Personally I feel that both fears are ungrounded; but I believe that it is key to understanding why many Americans are leery of giving Executive power to someone who might take their marching orders from a foreign or religious power.

216 posted on 02/08/2008 7:23:37 AM PST by allmendream ("A Lyger is pretty much my favorite animal."NapoleonD)
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To: allmendream

This is from the link I added to this fascinating conversation.

“any generalization of the Founders as deists is completely inaccurate.”


217 posted on 02/08/2008 7:30:02 AM PST by hedgetrimmer (I'm a billionaire! Thanks WTO and the "free trade" system!--Hu Jintao top 10 worst dictators)
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To: allmendream

The title of this article, The Founding Fathers were Deists.


218 posted on 02/08/2008 7:31:50 AM PST by hedgetrimmer (I'm a billionaire! Thanks WTO and the "free trade" system!--Hu Jintao top 10 worst dictators)
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To: hedgetrimmer
And any generalization that none of the founders were Deists is completely inaccurate.

Citing Paine, Jefferson and Franklin as an argument that this nation was founded only by Christians is completely reliant upon the ignorance the reader would have to have of the philosophy, life, and history of these three men.

The founding was very influenced by Deism and the Enlightenment (witness the phrase “Author of the Universe” used by many founders who were Christian), and a few of the most influential founders were actually Deists. Yet the majority of this nation and our founders were Christian; and Christian ideas of liberty are inherent to our system of governance.

219 posted on 02/08/2008 7:38:56 AM PST by allmendream ("A Lyger is pretty much my favorite animal."NapoleonD)
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To: maine-iac7; muawiyah
the bishop = didn't want a Mormon "in HIS sanctuary"

In my lay opinion United States Catholic bishops primarily serve to grow mother church. Any Catholic bishop who "uninvites" a Mormon from a baptism seems to violate the spirit promulgated on page 81 of Doctrinal Elements at the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops site.

B. There are non-Christian religions common in [the] US including major world religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism, and others such as Sikhs, Mormons, Bahai
  1. Common elements with Christianity
    1. as human beings we share a common origin and end
    2. many of these religions teach to some degree compassionate action, moral restraint, spiritual discipline and respect for human dignity
    3. these religions contain elements of truth and virtue which can help orient their members toward reception of the Gospel
  2. Those who do not know Christ but who still strive to know and live in truth and holiness can be saved
  3. The fulfillment of the values and virtues of other religions is found in what the Catholic Church proclaims:
    1. God is one, and that God is Triune
    2. Jesus Christ as the Son of God
    3. salvation is a gift of grace available through faith in Jesus Christ
    4. sanctification is for human beings to particpate in the love of God now and eternally

IMHO.


The truth will set you free. - Jesus Christ
Coral Ridge Ministries: Proclaiming truths that transform the world.


220 posted on 02/08/2008 9:17:47 AM PST by Milhous (Gn 22:17 your descendants shall take possession of the gates of their enemies)
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