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The Third Battle of Fallujah: "This case must be pickle loaf"
Defend Our Marines ^ | August 20, 2007 | Nathaniel R. Helms

Posted on 08/21/2007 8:16:58 AM PDT by RedRover

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To: lilycicero; RedRover
Well whatcha lying down for? ...LOL...

From San Diego Union Tribune...At least one other Marine is implicated, according to an affidavit from the Naval Criminal Investigative Service. That Marine has not been charged yet, said Lt. Col. Chris Hughes, a spokesman for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force at Camp Pendleton.

Anyone think there will be three by the time this is over?
21 posted on 08/21/2007 12:16:00 PM PDT by Girlene
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To: Girlene

Unfortunately, I think at least three will be charged, and that charges against Nelson will be dropped.

Unless, that is, the Corps can withstand pressure from the NCIS and drop this case altogether.

It’s significant that NCIS brought charges in a civilian court first. I think this was meant to pressure the Corps into pursuing this prosecution.

We’ll see who wins in the weeks to come.


22 posted on 08/21/2007 12:40:32 PM PDT by RedRover (DefendOurMarines.com)
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To: brityank; 1stbn27; 2111USMC; 2nd Bn, 11th Mar; 68 grunt; A.A. Cunningham; ASOC; AirForceBrat23; ...

Thank you for the ping, brityank.

Sounds like the ol’ commandant ain’t commandantin’ much.

NCIS appears to be in charge of the USMC.


23 posted on 08/21/2007 3:39:30 PM PDT by freema
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To: RedMonqey

That exact argument is one theory re: Malmedy


24 posted on 08/21/2007 4:16:40 PM PDT by stylin19a (Go Bears !)
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To: RedRover

Before we win this war we need to Declare war on the NCIS, the Lawyers and the Jihadi supporting courts in this country grrrrrrrrrr.


25 posted on 08/21/2007 4:51:07 PM PDT by Leatherneck_MT (A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.)
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To: RedMonqey
those at Malamdy could make the same argument

Actually they had a better one, Their orders gave them the authority to dispose of those prisoners for the purposes of striking fear in American troops.

It was a bad strategy.

26 posted on 08/21/2007 5:12:24 PM PDT by usmcobra (I sing Karaoke the way it was meant to be sung, drunk, badly and in Japanese)
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To: Leatherneck_MT

I concur; NCIS is corrupt.

Semper Fidelis,
fontman


27 posted on 08/21/2007 5:33:49 PM PDT by fontman
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To: lilycicero
If you are a Freeper reading this thread, don’t be shy. Tell us what you think of the treatment of the Marines and former Marines.

To be honest, I have little hope that anything I have to say will have an impact but I feel like I owe a bigger debt than I could ever pay to the brave men and women serving in the military. And as the mother of a Marine whose MOS pretty much guarantees he'll be going to Iraq I'm very, very concerned about this trend of persecuting Marines.

My son wanted to be a Marine so bad he could taste it. His grandfather served during WWII. He was in the Army and part of the 4th ID who marched from Utah Beach to Barvaria. His was the first division to enter Paris and they were at Hurtgen Forest, a virtual bloodbath. His grandmother was one of the 20,000 pioneering women to become a lady Marine during WWII. She often tells him about how she would watch the Marines march in parades when she was a girl and the awe and pride she felt. She vowed if women were ever allowed in the Corps, she would join. She was at his graduation. He keeps a picture of her in her uniform with him. She is a reminder of what an honor it is to serve in the Corps. His grandparents are his inspiration.

The day he left for boot camp I think I cried until I had no tears left. There's a saying that goes, "to be a mother is to forever have your heart walking around outside your body". I understood what it meant that day. But his graduation was euphoric. The maturity and pride I saw in my son was indescribable. At that time the Haditha nonsense hadn't ramped up. I followed the story but I guess I was still in denial because couldn't believe the Marine Corps would allow this kind of thing to happen to some of its most experienced and decorated warriors. Common sense should tell you that when you're fighting an enemy that hides behind and attempts to blend into the population, civilians WILL die.

Tim McGirk spent Thanksgiving with the Taliban while his own countrymen were engaged in a battle with them (and came to the conclusion they were just a swell bunch of fellas just like the guys he'd invite over to watch a ball game), that he would have an agenda was pretty obvious. Considering how negative the press has been throughout the entire Iraq war, I'm surprised this article got such a rise out of the Marine Corps. Not to be outdone, Jack Murtha got into the act. I find it incredibly difficult to believe this man was ever a Marine. And so, charges were leveled. Then the negative stories started trickling out, selected to make these brave and careful men look like crazed murderers on a rampage of vengence. The press knows that most people don't read past the first or second paragraph and that an opinion, once it's been pounded into the public over and over and over again will most likely never change. People I thought should know better were accepting the prosecution's version of events on the basis of a carefully crafted story the NCIS was creating. It was a smart, albeit very dishonest, strategy on their part because even though the truth is now out and the Marines are being exonerated, they'll never get their reputations back completely.

It would've been easier to simply meet them at the airport and spit on them and swear at them when they got off the plane. I suppose if Tim McGirk and Jack Murtha couldn't engineer that, this was the next best thing. If it were my child going through this, I know I would never feel the same about my country or the Corps again. Heck, I've only been an observer and I have mixed feelings. The left is what it is and will never change, but I expect more out of the Marines. Every Marine may be a rifleman but I guess you tend to forget what that's like when you get far enough up the food chain.

My nervousness and doubt comes from the fact that I now know what everyone in the NCIS has known from the beginning...what JAG has known, what everyone up the chain of command has known. This was a battle, one which the powers that be could watch in real time. Intelligence about the impending battle was known ahead of time, a very thorough report with pictures was submitted afterwards, there's no reason for anyone to pretend these Marines MIGHT have done something wrong. Yet, on the words of a reporter who has no love for America's fighting men, a couple of KNOWN insurgents, and a congressman who accused these men of murdering "in cold blood", a fishing expedition ensued. They weren't looking for unbiased evidence, they were looking for "proof" a crime had been committed, following a script already written. Physical evidence (AK-47's, fake ID's, etc.) was all but ignored, coerced statements, outright lies the NCIS expected Marines to sign off on...many of these things had to be known by those in charge, those with the power to stop this, and yet they let this travesty continue.

Hamdania, Haditha and now Fallujah. When is it going to end? Sgt. Nazario has served his country and fought in one of the most harrowing battle zones in this war. Now, all he wants to do is live his life...be a cop and raise his family. Just another warrior being thrown under a bus. For what? To appease a hostile press? For the NCIS? Because Jack Murtha wants blood and is too big of a coward to apologize? Do we just continue letting the NCIS and JAG run rough-shod through the Marine Corps ruining lives? Is there no one with the authority or courage to reign them in? To investigate them and their handling of these cases? It's not like they have the most sterling history of investigative integrity. Or is it just easier to turn your head away while they continue these bizarre and unwarranted persecutions?

I thought HONOR, COURAGE and COMMITMENT meant something to the Marine Corps. What kind of honor is there to send your men into a battle and then expect them to fight another battle at home? How much honor is there in watching these families struggle to pay for legal representation, to lose their life savings while the government spends whatever they need to build a case that never should have been brought? You know who has honor? Lt. Col. Chessani! He thought it was more important to take care of his men than deal with the Tim McGirks of this world. In fact, every one of these warriors that are now or have been, under fire have more honor than I've seen exhibited by anyone up the chain of command. In spite of how they've been treated I've never heard one of them say anything negative about the Marine Corps. Those of you ready to put another Marine on the chopping block might think about that.

And where is the courage that's supposed to be a Corps value? Does it end at the battlefield's edge? Is it forgotten with the comforts of rank? How much courage is there in sending men to fight for OUR freedom and then expect them to fight for their own? Someone up the chain has the power to say enough is enough and yet no one seems willing. Someone up the chain of command has the power to come out and acknowledge what travesties these cases have been. Someone up the chain of command has the power to call for a thorough investigation of the NCIS and their tactics because they are clearly out of control. Sure, it takes courage to step out of your comfort zone. But grunts do it every single day. I've been told since my son was a poolie that the Marine Corps was a family. If it is, it's certainly a disfunctional one.

What about committment? I've heard retired Marines who still take pride in being one of "the few" no longer encouraging young people to join the Corps because of these completely unnecessary persecutions. Why should they recommend anyone make a committment to the Corps when it's evident that the Corps won't make the same committment to them? My son's grandfather, the one who bravely stormed the beaches on D-Day didn't want his beloved grandson to join the Corps because he was afraid. Not just of him being sent into battle, although that was certainly foremost in his mind, but also because of what was happening with the Hamdania and Haditha Marines (he lives near Camp Pendleton and so hears about this more than the rest of the country). He said to my husband, "If you ask him not to join, he wouldn't." That might be true, because my son honors his parents, but we would never ask him to give up his dreams.

Honestly, however, I don't want my son part of an organization that doesn't have his back. He is my heart. He is the best part of me. And he is a good Marine, proud of his Corps. Honor, courage, committment have defined his life so I really wasn't surprised to see him join. I won't be surprised if he makes it a career. Provided of course he doesn't end up being persecuted for fighting for his country.

Cindie

28 posted on 08/21/2007 6:37:02 PM PDT by gardencatz (Your son might be an honor student, but mine's a US Marine...it can't always be someone else's son!)
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To: gardencatz

Has anyone told you that you are a great person? Thank you for the passionate response.
Stay proud and thank your son for me.


29 posted on 08/21/2007 6:54:56 PM PDT by lilycicero (Why can't everyone just post a something something in support is beyond me????)
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To: brityank; 4woodenboats

You also always have great support for justice. Can’t you invite any of your friends to our party?


30 posted on 08/21/2007 7:01:02 PM PDT by lilycicero (We are up to a whopping 30 posts (that's including the silly ones))
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To: gardencatz; lilycicero

BUMP!


31 posted on 08/21/2007 7:03:41 PM PDT by jazusamo (DefendOurMarines.com)
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To: freema
"He was charged on the verbal evidence of several unidentified eye witnesses, according to the complaint filed in Federal Court in Riverside, California. The charges were brought by Naval Criminal Investigative Service Special Agent Mark Fox. There is no crime scene, physical or forensic evidence, and no complainant other than the government, according to the information released."

What the *hit, purdon my french is going on here? I can hardly believe all these cases are even being considered. And this is during a Republican Administration never the less.
Where are the outcries from Congress over how shabby our Marines and Soldiers are being treated for going into battle, under often the most difficult conditions.
Frigen Fallujah as we are now have embedded in our minds, was amoung the toughest ground action or Soldiers and Marines have had to face since Vietnam as some have made note.
32 posted on 08/21/2007 9:24:23 PM PDT by Marine_Uncle (Hunter in 2008)
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To: xzins
A KO drug won't work because most of the captured were badly wounded and the drug would have killed them and we have another Geneva Convention problem.

The muj had specific training and preparation for possible capture. Many attacked with loosened tourniquets on their arms and legs, they got as close to our positions as they could and used the tourniquets to stay alive for the purpose of shouting out our positions, strength, and weapons. Many of them were high on hashish and opium to avoid the debilitating effect of pain. They fought or contributed to the fight until they were dead.

The Marines often had to kill "prisoners" to shut them up, no comparison to Malmedy where our captured troops were out of the fight.

Additionally, the dying muj often had charged grenades under their armpits so that removal or movement or medical assistance to the muj would kill or injure more Marines.

Bottom line, these so called "prisoners" remained committed unarmed combatants because they wouldn't shut up and they chose to boobytrap themselves.

BTW, after both fights many muj bodies were buried under rubble and consumed mainly by ants that descended on Fallujah in waves.

Additionally, the muj had gone underground in many parts of the Jolan neighborhood, so the Marines breached some river dikes and flooded them, drowning many muj.

The world can say what it likes after the fight, but from now on, if the Marines show up, the enemy knows it is going to die and die ugly.

To hell with the lawyers.

Semper fi, carry on.

33 posted on 08/21/2007 11:11:45 PM PDT by gandalftb (mps)
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To: Marine_Uncle

The majority in Congress don’t even comprehend the War on Terror.


34 posted on 08/22/2007 2:50:22 AM PDT by freema
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To: gandalftb

However, a knock-out drug could be put in the ROEs, and then the soldier is covered if this kind of crap comes up.

If those prisoners were shouting out their position, then they were not yet prisoners and were still in the fight. That makes them targets.

Nazario, the sergeant in question, is saying that the event never even happened, that it’s entirely made up, misconstrued, or something.


35 posted on 08/22/2007 4:24:41 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: freema

Good point. Bunch of lazy goons.


36 posted on 08/22/2007 4:46:53 AM PDT by Marine_Uncle (Hunter in 2008)
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To: gardencatz

Yours was a wonderful post.


37 posted on 08/22/2007 5:30:53 AM PDT by toddlintown (Six bullets and Lennon goes down. Yet not one hit Yoko. Discuss.)
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To: xzins
I agree that an ROE would work if you could get it approved. There would be a wagon full of ACLU lawyers fighting it along with the press, etc. And if the KO drug actually killed someone accidently and there was an autopsy report.

What if the "prisoner" was still alert because of stimulants in his system and a second KO drug killed him? Or what if multiple KO's were given by accident? And if the "prisoner" awoke? And started shouting again?

Battle application would be very complicated, medics would be better off to dose them up with the morphine they already carry.

These muj won't quit until they are dead....

38 posted on 08/22/2007 9:50:01 AM PDT by gandalftb (mps)
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To: Marine_Uncle

Lazy, and stupid, and selfish.


39 posted on 08/22/2007 4:24:07 PM PDT by freema
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