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To: spunkets; All
The end point is this:

You, and no one else, can prove that matter has always existed, so why then do you claim that it has always existed? You can believe all you want that matter has always existed, but that doesn't make it so.

It is an unknown, as it is an unknown whether or not God created the universe. It is ridiculous to scientifically claim one unknown and discount the other unknown.

And neither can someone prove that matter was created by God and that He has always existed.

Both are just OPINIONS and a PHILOSOPHICAL belief system. (emphasis only).

If one cannot prove either, then what we have are creationists saying "We're right, and God does exist", and atheists saying "No, we're right, and God did not create the universe. There is no Supreme Being"

He said/she said, yada, yada, yada.

In the end, atheists act so enlightened and all, but they really don't know how we got here any more than creationists do.

It all comes down to faith.

Atheists believe by faith that God does not exist, and creationists believe by faith that God does exist...so...both groups are both in the 'faith camp,' so to speak.

That is the unvarnished truth, and atheists can recoil at that thought all they want, but that truth will continue to stare them in the face, whether they want it to or not.
48 posted on 11/16/2006 6:26:37 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist (Keep working! Welfare cases and their liberal enablers are counting on you!)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
" You, and no one else, can prove that matter has always existed,"

Conservation of energy, there's very strong evidence for it. BTW, the word proof only has meaning in logic and mathematical constructions. It has no other use in science, only evidence does.

" It is an unknown, as it is an unknown whether or not God created the universe."

It's a known with real evidence. It's also illogical to think something could come from nothing. As I said previously, there's only one person that showed up and claimed to be God. His words are all there is to go on.

" And neither can someone prove that matter was created by God and that He has always existed."

If God exists, then He alsways existed. It's in the logic.

" Both are just OPINIONS and a PHILOSOPHICAL belief system. (emphasis only)."

They are judgements based on the evidence and logical perfection in the claims. They are not necessarily simple opinion. Their measure of truth lies in the inherent perfection of the logic and evidence that supports it. Simple opinion does not.

"If one cannot prove either, then what we have are creationists saying "We're right, and God does exist", and atheists saying "No, we're right, and God did not create the universe. There is no Supreme Being" "

No. The question of whether, or not there's a SBeing can only be answered by the being presenting himself and others judging. It's that simple.

" It all comes down to faith. Atheists believe by faith that God does not exist, and creationists believe by faith that God does exist...so...both groups are both in the 'faith camp,' so to speak. "

The only faith involved regards believing what someone tells you. No one can claim God doesn't exist per Occam's razor, as above.

49 posted on 11/16/2006 7:03:55 PM PST by spunkets
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