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To: aceintx
Sorry to poke my knows into our conversation.

"Your argument leaves out one important fact in the discussion about evolution that is separate from the mathematical probabilities but equally as relevant.

I'm glad you are removing the discussion from those horribly mutated and grotesque probability calculations. They truly are meaningless.

"1) The moth that you describe is still a moth after it mutated.

As it should. Given the length of time (short, short, short) we have been observing moths it would surprise me if we witnessed a subgroup become something other than moths.

"2)The Canine that you described is still a Canine.

Again, this is not unexpected.

"I contend that Micro evolution is clearly a fact and no scientist has ever and will never prove Macro Evolution, (A dog becoming a Lion) has ever occurred.

That is very good (that a dog has not become a Lion that is).

Part of the problem is in your understanding of what constitutes a species. You seem to believe that speciation requires large 'macro' morphological change. This isn't true. Speciation simply requires a full or partial (but mostly full) cessation of gene flow between two groups, as in sympatric speciation where two groups share a geographical locale but do not exchange genes or allopatric speciation where a species is divided into smaller groups that are separated geographically. As long as the two groups, the parent and daughter, are restricted in intergroup gene flow, any difference in selection type and degree, or drift, will inevitably result in morphological differences. Accumulated small differences do result in large differences.

To see this in action, look up 'ring species' such as the Asian Greenish Warbler (Phylloscopus trochiloides), where two subspecies (Phylloscopus trochiloides viridanus and Phylloscopus trochiloides plumbeitarsus), although they share a geographic range do not interbreed. They are still (arguably) considered the same species (albiet different subspecies) because there exists a potential gene flow through the other three geographically connected subspecies. Remove that potential gene flow and they become different species.

Note: The definition of species is fluid not because taxonomists can't make up their mind (which is sometimes the case) but because in many cases the differences between real live animals are difficult to categorize (think platypus)

The dog population (Canis lupus familiaris) will not become a new species by jumping (a saltation event) to a totally new morphology such as a Lion's (Panthera leo); it (the population) will become a slightly different dog which in turn will become a slightly different dog than its predecessor which in turn will increasingly differentiate from there through a number of generations. Eventually the morphological differences between the original Canis lupus familiaris and the new Canis lupus ?????? will be enough to be recognizably different animals, as different as a dog is to a lion.

What is interesting is the incredible variation between the extremes in extant dogs. If we hadn't witnessed their development and facilitate their interbreeding, they would probably be classified as a number of different species rather than as a number of different subspecies.

These minor changes, which are easily observed, will inevitably result in fairly large morphological differences, enough for even an anti-evolutionist to admit as different 'kinds' (putatively a higher taxon than species). This 'additive or cumulative change' is ubiquitous in things we observe and/or create.

Ex: If we take a white pigment and add just a little green pigment we end up with a pigment that is white with a tinge of green. As we add more and more green pigment eventually what was white will be considered green (maybe with a tinge of white). This is cumulative change. In evolution this would be an accumulation of 'micro' evolutionary changes that amount to a 'macro' evolutionary change.

OK, I can hear it now, the normal anti-evolutionist outcry when confronted with gradual incremental change - 'But it's still a pigment'. Although this analogy (a pigment/dog is still a pigment/dog) is enticing in its conclusion, it really is a false analogy. Consider that a wolf and a lion are still Carnivora, a wolf and a whale are still Mammalia, a wolf and an Angel fish are still Animalia, and a wolf and a maple tree are still Eukaryota.

Which of these is the best analog to the pigments of the above example? If your first impulse is to restrict pigments to species, perhaps the electromagnetic spectrum is a better analog for the higher taxa.

In any case, small additive changes will accumulate into larger differences unless there is a mechanism that bounds the changes. In the case of the electromagnetic spectrum (light) colours are bounded (restricted) by our ability to 'see' them. We can not see all frequencies of light so colours can be said to have an upper and a lower bound, no increase in frequency will result in a different colour beyond our upper limit of vision (~780 nm). Strictly speaking the light simply becomes invisible but it still makes my point - incremental change will accumulate unless some mechanism presents a barrier to that accumulation.

Why should evolutionary change be any different? Because we have not been observing and recording the changes in species long enough to 'see' macro changes? No, the simple observation, or more precisely, the lack of observation is not enough to conclude it will not happen. For us to conclude that accumulation is restricted we need to hypothesize and test for a bounding mechanism. Without that mechanism, we logically have to conclude that accumulated changes will build up to large changes.

"I challenge you to recite one instance where it can be proven scientifically, (Observed) that any species has ever become another species trough evolution.

I challenge you to prove it could not and has not happened.

It is up to you to provide the mechanism that prevents accumulated 'micro' changes from becoming large 'macro' changes. The transitional sequences in the fossil record spanning the large jumps in time we are too transitory to witness, tell us that the small changes we see in extant species (and we do have examples of new species) do indeed accumulate and result in huge change. What we find in DNA verifies this accumulation of change and the relationship of apparently morphologically disparate extant species. (eg. artiodactyls and cetaceans).

"I won't hold my breath!

Good, you'll need to breathe to find that mechanism.

262 posted on 03/03/2006 8:10:53 PM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: b_sharp
Sorry to poke my knows into our conversation.

Well said:)

269 posted on 03/03/2006 8:32:45 PM PST by Ken H
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To: b_sharp
"Given the length of time (short, short, short) we have been observing moths it would surprise me if we witnessed a subgroup become something other than moths."

____________________________________________________________

The Scientific method as defined by webster "The rules and methods for the pursuit of knowledge involving the finding and stating of a problem, the collection of facts through observation and experiment, and the making and testing of ideas that need to be proved right or wrong."

By your statement you are admitting that Evolution is not science since nobody has been around to observe or test the scope of "Evolution" throughout the supposed Billions and Billions of years that this is supposed to have been going on.

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"Note: The definition of species is fluid not because taxonomists can't make up their mind (which is sometimes the case) but because in many cases the differences between real live animals are difficult to categorize (think platypus)"

___________________________________________________________

This statement is an admission of a key flaw in the so called "Science" of Evolution. What determines what animal belongs to what species. The answer? We do! I know there is a lot of study and comparison on the genetic level that are used to classify these animals but species when you get down to it is nothing more than a name given by a white coated person in a lab to life forms of similar makeup.

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"I challenge you to prove it could not and has not happened."

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First of all it is not my burden to prove that evolution is not science based on observation and testing. The burden is yours to prove that it is a "Science" since the final thrust of all your arguments when questioned by those of us who believe in intelligent design is that "Evolution is science". "You're just a religious nut." "Nyanya Nyanya Nya Nya" Again I challenge you. Show me a "Scientist" who has ever tested or observed an instance where one type of animal ever became another.

If you can not do so, the claim that Evolution is Science falls flat on it's face.

____________________________________________________________

"It is up to you to provide the mechanism that prevents accumulated 'micro' changes from becoming large 'macro' changes. The transitional sequences in the fossil record spanning the large jumps in time we are too transitory to witness, tell us that the small changes we see in extant species (and we do have examples of new species) do indeed accumulate and result in huge change. What we find in DNA verifies this accumulation of change and the relationship of apparently morphologically disparate extant species. (eg. artiodactyls and cetaceans)."
____________________________________________________________

I can't help but note that you neglected my question about the second law of thermo dynamics which states in a nut shell that all matter is breaking down and tending toward chaos. This is my answer to your challenge above. The Second Law of Thermo Dynamics blows away any chance that increasing complexity is possible. The idea that a single celled organism some how gathered enough new genetic data to become a fish is laughable. The Second Law of Thermo Dynamics and evolution are absolutely incompatible.

Let me ask you this as you are obviously more well versed in genetics than I am but I think I know the answer to this. Isn't it true that as genes are transfered from one generation to the next that there is a loss of data? Has anyone ever observed an infusion of new data to one generation that didn't already exist in the generation that preceded it? Is it really possible to make something out of nothing?

Is it really possible for EVERYTHING to spring from NOTHING as the Big Bang would have us believe.

I eagerly await your answer.

:>)
319 posted on 03/04/2006 12:22:20 AM PST by aceintx (Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice!)
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