Srebrenica, lies and media games

You know Tom in this world where public opinion is so important to those that spin the truth that they want, you just never know. Hoplite has no credibility and admitting he was no more than a reservist tells me he is just one of those pissed off SOB that has nothing more to to do but piss off Rights people. If his job was to in fact discredit people like you and I his track record would have had him fired him a long time ago. I seen some of his interactions on other subjects on FR and its all the same, Hoplites right and the world is wrong. I would not read any more into this goof than you have to because he is nothing more than smoke in mirrors. I would not loose any sleep over grandpa hoplite.....

Oh, I'm sorry; you asked me to "humor you" and I failed to do that....So, let me humor you.....

History Of Military Uniform Colors

We should remember the origins, history and tradition of the uniforms worn with pride by militaries around the world. For example, a long time ago, Britain and France were at war. During one battle, the French captured an
English colonel. Taking him to their headquarters, the French general began to question him.

Finally, as an afterthought, the French general asked, "Why do you English officers all wear red coats? Don't you know the red material makes you easier targets for us to shoot at?" In his bland English way, the colonel
informed the general that the reason English officers wear red coats are so that if they are shot, the blood won't show and the men they are leading won't panic.

And that is why, from that day to this, all French Army officers wear brown pants.

"It was too much tequila,
Or not quite enough..."

--Jimmy Buffett

By the way Hoplite, when the drill instructor asked your platoon to pull out their sheets and hold them up...what color(s) were your sheets...hmmmmmmmmm??? Anyway, feeling a little brown lately.

Ok, I'll get serious. Too bad you're not here in my Fortress of Solitude....I'm drinking a little bit of Prirodna Rakija....Pear flavor. Good stuff....I bet we could have a real nice "face to face" discussion at the table drinking Rakija and discussing the issues......:)=)

[quote]More "I know you are, but what am I" nonsense. You're the liar, Tom. Not me.[/quote]

******No, hoppie,,,,,If something I post is not exactly accurate for some reason it's not because of lying, its because I'm human and can sometimes make a mistake, or didn't read a certain report etc.....However, since we have been writing you have been caught in purposeful deceit. I find that if I'm corrected, it's a learning experience. For you, it's a failure of not covering your tracks good enough. I believed for a long time that the Serbs killed 8,000 Muslims, and so forth and so on....until I learned, "recently" that it was not true, but built on hearsay....

[quote]Why do you think I keep bringing up your "no Kosovar mass graves" gaffe?[/quote]

******Easy answer, you don't have much else to bring up...DUH!

[quote]So long as you allow that documented lie of yours to remain in play, nothing you say is worth a damn. And all this Srebrenica nonsense you're going on about is just digging your hole deeper. You don't know the first thing about Srebrenica, and are being played like you hoped to play others in regard to Kosovo.[/quote]

*******Says who? You? You're not playing anyone. True, I am not intimately familiar with Bosnia or Croatia. However, I am aware of the major issues that surround the operation and major fabrications.

[quote]Oh the irony of it all.[/quote]

******Ever thought of being in a play, or go into acting. Very dramatic for an old man.

[quote]C'mon Tom - go for the gusto: Gimme a "There were no Srebrenica related mass graves!" just for the record.
What have you got to lose which you haven't already lost?[/quote]

****** You think you are tricky......you're just plain stupid...::)

****** Okay lets start from the beginning. Milosevic was accused by NATO of organizing the murder of 100,000 Albanian Kosovars. This claim which, in the course of NATO's 78-day bombing campaign, NATO could make without the public ever have any way of checking.

The reports of the American and West European media during the war grossly and irresponsibly exaggerated the actual scale of the killings inside Kosovo by Serb forces. The comparisons between Serbia and Nazi Germany, between the Kosovan civil war and the Holocaust, were based on a distortion of history and cover-up of the political context of the violence in Kosovo.

The interesting part and what many people don't know is that NATO has since backed away from the claim. Pathologists have failed to turn up anywhere near the number of bodies NATO warned were thrown across Kosovo. Milosevic in the end was indicted on war crimes that involved fewer deaths than the number killed by NATO's bombs. There was only one pre-bombing incident Milosevic was indicted on -- the infamous Racak massacre --and it was probably a fake, engineered by the KLA, with the collusion, of the US Administration.

***** Also given the failure to the tribunal to convict any Albanians or provide any compelling evidence that there are many reasons to question the impartiality and purpose of the tribunal that has indicted Milosevic.

***** After 78-days of NATO bombing, when forensic pathologists were dispatched to Kosovo to unearth the legions of dead Albanian civilians said to have been slaughtered by Milosevic's security forces, came more reasons to believe NATO's stories of genocide were nothing more than gross hyperbole. The pathologists couldn't find all the bodies they were led to believe they'd find. Dr. Peter Markesteyn, a Winnipeg forensic pathologist, was among the first war crimes investigators to arrive in Kosovo after NATO ended its bombing campaign.

Quote:

"We were told there were 100,000 bodies everywhere," said Dr.Markesteyn. "We performed 1,800 autopsies -- that's it."
So, fewer than 2,000 corpses. None found in the Trepca mines. No remains in the vats of sulfuric acid. Most found in isolated graves -- not in the mass graves NATO warned about. And no clue as to whether the bodies were those of KLA fighters, civilians, even whether they were Serb or ethnic Albanian.

Just one example of many such stories...............

Kosovo - a reporter's dilemma
Christian Science Monitor / Sept. 13, 1999 / p 7
CONNED IN KOSOVO: A CBC REPORTER'S DILEMMA HOW TO RESPOND WHEN A TALE OF ATROCITY ISN'T TRUE?

By Tom Regan, Special to The Christian Science Monitor
HALIFAX, NOVA SCOTIA -- When Nancy Durham first discovered that she had been lied to, her reaction was "the most incredible sinking feeling."

Ms. Durham, a Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) television reporter, had returned to Kosovo in June of this year, to do a follow-up piece on an 18-year-old girl who had joined the Kosovo Liberation Army after her young sister had been killed by Serbs. The girl's story had been part of a larger piece that aired on the CBC in January, to much critical praise. Yet as Durham stood in the doorway of the family's home in Skenderaj, the sister who was supposed to have been killed was standing there, alive and well.

Rather than trying to excuse or brush off the lie, or have the CBC do a simple correction, Durham decided to do a full story - not only about the girl who told it, but what it said about how news is reported from a war zone.
The result is a 16-minute report: "The Truth About Rajmonda: A KLA Soldier Lies for the Cause." It's being hailed by many media observers in Canada as a breakthrough piece that should serve as a model for other news organizations.

Durham's involvement with Rajmonda Rreci began in September 1998 while she was filming a piece on an Albanian doctor. Rajmonda, a patient, told Durham on camera that she was joining the KLA to avenge the death of her six-year old sister. Durham (who works as a one-woman reporting "team") returned in December 1998 and tracked down Ms. Rreci. During that interview, Rreci said that her sister was fortunate to die for Kosovo, and that she would do the same.

Then in June, almost as soon as NATO-led peacekeeping troops went into the region, Durham went back. It was during this trip she learned that Rreci had lied. When confronted, she told Durham that she had actually thought her sister was dead, but wasn't sure, and that doctors in the hospital had encouraged her to tell the story because other girls had lost sisters to the Serbs.

"My first thoughts were 'This is a disaster,' " says Durham. "I had this passion for the people in the story. I felt really depressed. If this happens to me, I thought, and I go back again, and again, and again, how many other journalists has this happened to?" Durham returned to her home in Oxford, England, and thought about what she wanted to do. And although some media critics have said that the CBC pushed her to go back to do the report, Durham says this is untrue. She says she needed to go back, find Rajmonda Rreci again, and this time tell the true story.
It turned out that most of what the teenager had said wasn't true. She had actually been a member of the KLA before she went to the hospital and had known all along that her sister was alive. But Rreci continued to stress that other Kosovar girls had lost their sisters, and why shouldn't she do it for them? Ultimately, Rreci did admit that what she said was just KLA propaganda.

For Steve Kimber, director of the school of journalism at the University of King's College in Halifax, Nova Scotia, what Durham and the CBC did was critical. "It's very important to make journalism more transparent to the public. Particularly with a story that deals with ''heartstrings' like this one. And if it's not true, to give it just as much time as the story you had broadcast earlier."

John Allemang, media critic for the Toronto Globe and Mail, says that while he feels the CBC has "overreacted," he's proud of the broadcaster for airing Durham's report. "But the question is, are they applying it across the board? There are lots of other situations where we're aware that we're not being told the complete truth. Is the CBC going to now start going back to check on other stories? The truth is, that it's hard for the media to check up on these things."

This article is reproduced in accordance with U.S.C. Title 17 Section 107 of the federal copyright laws, the "fair use" exemption. In compliance with the claimed exemption, this material is distributed without profit and for educational purposes only. Further use is prohibited.
http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/sdil.htm

David Gowan, a British government spokesman on the investigation into war crimes charges in Kosovo, said, "It's very difficult to give an overall number but what's clear is that the picture is far worse than we thought." This comment is inexplicable except as an attempt to extract the maximum propaganda value from the pictures now coming out of Kosovo. The British estimate actually represents a lowering, by at least a factor of ten, of the most farfetched claims made during the war, when US and NATO officials declared that between 100,000 and 225,000 Albanian men were missing and potentially murdered.

Nor is there any reason to believe that the figure of 10,000 is accurate. The press accounts of the British claim conceal the fact that Whitehall prepared this estimate several weeks ago, based on "military and media reports as well as interviews with refugees in Albania and Macedonia." In other words, the figure of 10,000 is not based on any tabulation of graves or bodies actually found in Kosovo, although media reports give that impression.
Official US statements on the alleged death toll in Kosovo are equally suspect. Pentagon spokesman Mike Doubleday said NATO soldiers had "come upon or heard about 90 suspected mass grave sites since entering Kosovo on Saturday." There are a sufficient number of qualifiers in that sentence to send up many warning flags. What initially appears to be significant evidence of several thousand deaths turns out to be more rumor and speculation than fact: these are "suspected" sites, some only "heard about," which troops have "come upon"—i.e., not investigated.

What becomes a "suspected" mass grave site, more often than not, is a claim or suspicion voiced by someone from the KLA—officer, soldier, interpreter—to a NATO military commander, who in turn communicates it to an American or British reporter. No one in this chain is an objective observer. All have a vested interest in depicting the conditions in Kosovo in as dark and incriminating a fashion as possible, to justify the US-NATO war.

Stratfor stated that of the 150 suspected sites examined, "the bodies are generally being found in very small numbers—far smaller than encountered after the Bosnian war". Of the civilian dead found thus far, a good number were apparently executed, but others died as a result of fighting between Serb forces and the NATO-backed Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), and some were killed by NATO bombs.

In two trips to Kosovo since the war's end, the American FBI has found a total of 30 sites containing some 200 bodies. A Spanish team investigating one zone in Kosovo found no mass graves and only 187 bodies, all buried in individual graves. One team member, Emilio Perez Pujol, said, "There never was a genocide in Kosovo. It was dishonest and wrong for Western leaders to adopt the term in the beginning to give moral authority to the operation."

During the war there was a series of bombings of Serb and Kosovar civilians, including the destruction of passenger trains and assaults on Albanian refugees, followed by NATO's bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, fuelled public concern and distrust of NATO claims. Relations with Russia and China deteriorated. Divisions among the NATO powers widened over the scale of the bombing and the possible introduction of ground troops, with the US and Britain generally finding themselves on one side of the argument, and Germany, France, Italy and Greece on the other.

The question of the destruction of bodies and evidence brings us to the subject of the Trepca mines in northern Kosovo, which were widely alleged in the early days of the KFOR occupation to have served as the site for the disposal of hundreds, even thousands, of bodies. Now the International Criminal Tribunal states it has found "no solid evidence" of atrocities at Trepca. What lies between these two junctures?

hoplite/marcus was a National Guardsman. Big differance!

He is doing to you what he did to me a back about 4 years ago or so, Tom.

Well, it's a good thing actually, it brings out more facts, discussion and helps to resurface an issue that is coming back around shortly. The issue about independence is currently brewing and will be news in the future.

Check this out.....and especially the last article, last paragraph.

Thaci: Pristina Will Not Negotiate Kosovo Independence

Bratislava, 20 Feb. (Makfax) – Pristina delegation is prepared to negotiate about everything, except the independence of Kosovo at the talks in Vienna.
This was stated by the Democratic Party of Kosovo leader Hashim Thaci in his interview to Slovakian daily SME, adding that this issue will be resolved by the end of this year.
“We are ready to negotiate everything, except sovereignty of Kosovo. That we will not negotiate. We guarantee the rights of all minorities, especially the Serbian minority”, says Thaci.
According to Thaci, Pristina proposal ensures that all Serbs will be equal citizens of Kosovo.
“We offer the right to dual citizenship. Also, we will accept the legitimate right of Belgrade to intervene to position of Serbs in Kosovo”, adds Thaci.
Proposals given by Belgrade, e.g. ethnic division of Kosovo, or delay of Kosovo independence for 20 years, cannot work in practice, said Thaci.
“In Belgrade already accepted that the independence of Kosovo is reality. Their role now is not to lose pride in front of the Serbian public. I believe that Belgrade in the end, will accept international decision for independence of Kosovo”, stated Thaci to SME.

Ahtisaari: Majority Will Decide

Berlin, Belgrade, Pristina, 19 Feb. (Beta) - Martti Ahtisaari foresees Kosovo independence, because the majority of Kosovo residents will decide so.
“Contact Group reached an agreement at the London meeting that in the end, Kosovo residents should decide about the future of Kosovo. Ninety percent are Albanians – so what you think they will decide”, said UN special envoy for talks about Kosovo status to German weekly “Spiegel”, right before start of decentralization talks in Vienna.
He said that guidelines are clear and “international community decided that current status cannot be kept in the future”. The UN envoy also noted that Belgrade cannot count on achieving of political and economic goals, unless it cooperates in a proper way in resolving of Kosovo status.
Ahtisaari added “there are two separate, and equally important parts at the talks”, and first one addresses “decentralization issue, self-government of Serbian minority, and issues of education and security”. “Second complex of issues addresses solely Serbia. We are talking about national goals of Serbia: NATO and European Union memberships and economic aspect. All these are not connected to Kosovo, except in one case. If Belgrade does not cooperate in the resolving of Kosovo issue, that will negatively influence Serbia’s goals”, noted Ahtisaari.
On Belgrade’s announcement on demand for a review of Bosnia and Herzegovina borders, if Kosovo becomes independent, UN envoy said; “the answer to this is simple: the one who does not play by the rules, should say farewell to their own goals”.
At same time, Ahtisaari reminded that “two possibilities were clearly excluded by the international community: a return to the situation before 1999, when Milosevic ruled Serbia and division of Kosovo”. Ahtisaari thinks that special attention should not be given to the announcements of Serbian Radical Party that Kosovo will be considered as East Germany, and later will be reunified with Serbia. “In every society there are people who give crazy statements. I do not consider such statements, it’s a waste of time”, Ahtisaari said.
On question what security guarantees are given to Serbs in Kosovo, UN envoy said; “protection of the minorities is a key issue, but does not exist at this moment”. “Something like KFOR troops have to exist in the future, as well, maybe only under different name. But, it has to be clear to everybody, Albanians too: if any party turns to violence, it is over for that party”, stressed Ahtisaari.

Tadic: Ahtisaari Has No Mandate To Impose Solution
Belgrade, 20 Feb (BETA) - Serbian President Boris Tadic said U.N. special envoy for the Kosovo status talks Marti Ahtisaari's "mandate is not to impose a solution, but facilitate a dialogue."
"The role of the international negotiator is not to define the outcome of talks, but to trigger the process instead. I feel Ahtisaari's position is politically incorrect at this point, which in no way reflects his role in the talks," Tadic said in a Feb. 19 interview with B92 TV, explaining that it will be the U.N. Security Council to choose the final solution, at the proposal of the Contact Group.
The Serbian president said Belgrade's giving up the talks would only "make Albanians happy," adding that he "will not leave the negotiating table." President Tadic believes the rest of the Belgrade team of negotiators share his view.

Samardzic: It Is Not Up To Ahtisaari To Anticipate Kosovo's Final Status
Vienna, 20 Feb (BETA) - Slobodan Samardzic, an adviser to Serbian Premier Vojislav Kostunica, said on Feb. 19 that U.N. Kosovo envoy Martti Ahtisaari will stop being the right person to supervise the Kosovo status talks if he continues making "careless" statements.
"His mandate does not include making such conjectures," said Samardzic in response to Ahtisaari's forecast in the German magazine Der Spiegel that Kosovo will become independent.
"Ahtisaari should take a look at the recommendations given to him by the U.N. secretary general since he is losing sight of them and making careless statements. If he continues to say things like that he will no longer be the right person for continuing the talks," said Samardzic.
The head of the Serbian Government Media Office, Srdjan Djuric, said on Feb. 19 that the U.N.'s special envoy on the question of Kosovo's future status "is wrongly and falsely interpreting" the Contact Group's conclusions and that he does not have the right to anticipate the final status of Kosovo.

Independent Kosovo Will Mean Exodus, Serbs Said

Ranilug, 20 Feb. (Tanjug) – In Kosovo Pomoravlje, in Ranilug Serbs today had a protest meeting from which they sent the message that an independent Kosovo is unacceptable for the Serbian community, and such solution for Kosovo and Metohija will cause a complete exodus of Serbs.
Creation of a Kosovo state, would mean that in the heart of Europe, a state is created which is a nest of terrorism, was the message of protesters in Ranilug. They demanded from the representatives of international community, talks about Kosovo status to be dedicated to respect of Resolution 1244 of UN Security Council, preservation of state integrity of Serbia, and talks generate compromise solution for Kosovo and Metohija.

Del Ponte Criticizes UNMIK
Hague, 20 Feb (B92) - The Hague Tribunal’s Chief Prosecutor Carla Del Ponte has criticized UNMIK for lack of cooperation.
Del Ponte stated that UNMIK is not cooperating adequately in the witness protection programs pertaining to war crimes trials.
“It is not at the level that it should be. We are concerned because UNMIK is not prepared to help us.” Del Ponte said.
According to the chief prosecutor, former Kosovo Prime Minister Ramush Haradinaj, who was indicted by the Tribunal for war crimes last year, should be remanded back to custody until the beginning of his trial.
“Haradinaj is politically active again, and I am bewildered by the international support that he is receiving. It seems that peace in Kosovo can only exist with Haradinaj there. That is unacceptable. The problem is that the trial must begin as soon as possible, and we need to receive evidence because some of our witnesses have been threatened.” Del Ponte said. (Beta)

Serbs Protest In Ranilluk

20 Feb (Radio Kosova) – About 1,000 Serbs protested against beginning of the talks for the status of Kosova in Ranilluk on Monday. Anamorava Serbs gathered in this village, the largest Serb inhabited village in Dardana municipality, to protest against the behavior of a part of the international community that has openly stated that Kosova is going towards independence.
“They said that they are dissatisfied that a part of this international community is prejudging the final status of Kosova,” a KPS regional spokesperson, Ismet Hashani said based on the request that Serbs made to the police to allow this protest. Hashani added that besides this, Serbs also expressed their dissatisfaction about violation of their rights and freedoms such as freedom of movement, employment, power supply and other public services.
“The protest lasted about 45 minutes and was peaceful. No incidents were reported,” Hashani said.

UNMIK’s Acronym Burned In Gjilan

20 Feb (Epoka e Re) – The Self Determination! Movement in Gjilan had an action in Gjilan, where they burned wooden UNMIK letters.
“The action went as planned. This time the KPS members photographed our activists and our activity, KFOR helped KPS take their pictures” announced the Self Determination! Movement office in Gjilan.

Independence Seen As Pragmatic And Realistic Solution

20 Feb (RTK) – Solution for Kosova is not seen as a just or ideal solution in the eyes of the American administration, analysts and other organizations, but as an optimal solution without any other acceptable alternative.
The essential legal international arguments of the right for self-determination or maintaining of the sovereignty are not used, but it is simply going toward an accelerated and realistic solution based on the Real-Politics doctrine of the former diplomat Henry Kissinger. It is already known that in the past three to four years, the essential issue in the American politics is Iraq, Afghanistan and global war against terrorism. From this viewpoint, Kosova issue remained a third hand issue or even further. However, recognition of Kosova independence is considered to be one problem less for Washington. The opinion that prevails in Washington is that this would not be an ideal or moralist solution, but a pragmatic solution that would eliminate it from being an issue that would need military, material and diplomatic investments – something that Washington is not ready to offer in light of this new century’s events. The fear for a domino effect in the region or worldwide, is not being mentioned anymore and Kosova is not being considered as a precedent, but as a special and inevitable reality. Multiethnic society, being a model of democratic countries, if looked at realistically, almost does not exist in Kosova. Even the departure of Serbs after the final status, which will be independence, will not be considered as a tragedy, but as a realistic and justifiable development conditioned by the solution of a greater issue – the aspiration of more than 90% of Kosova population and calming down of the situation in the region. The international community will request and insist on preservation of the Serbian cultural and religious heritage in Kosova, not only as a Serb ethnic wealth, but as a wealth of Kosova and humanity.
Assessment of initial stance of negotiating sides and measuring of both sides’ pulses is expected in Vienna talks on Monday. It is being openly said that if these talks are delayed and show that they are going towards a dead-end, Washington, Brussels and the international community should accelerate this solution by recognizing or imposing independence of Kosova, with or without Belgrade approval. These ideas, which were expressed recently, are being considered as an acceptable and inevitable option even for the US State Department and the White House.
By Sylejman Gashi, New York

To: Hoplite
Okay, I arrived in Kosovo during the middle of October 1999. As I said before, I know of no mass graves discovered when I was in Kosovo. The only only mass that I know of after that date was I did a complete analysis of the dead discovered in Kosovo according to the OSCE. This does not include mass graves found in Serbia.
________________________________________

From a DOS report:

The following is a general account of atrocities committed by Serbian forces against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo between 24 March and 4 June. Most of the incidents are drawn from refugee accounts, supplemented by diplomatic and other reporting.

Reports of Serb war crimes in Kosovo-including the detention and summary execution of military-aged men, destruction of civilian housing, and forcible expulsion-continue to mount. Kosovar Albanian refugees report mass executions in at least 85 towns and villages throughout the province since late March, as well as mass graves in Dobrosevac, Drenica, Glogovac, Lipljan, Kaaniku, Malisevo, Poklek, Pusto Selo, Radavac, Rezala, and the Pagarusa valley. DOS reported a confirmation of the presence of a mass burial site at Pusto Selo, Izbica, and Glogovac. Numerous refugee reports indicate Serb forces are taking steps to reduce forensic evidence of their crimes. This includes execution methods that would allow the Serbs to claim their victims were collateral casualties of military operations and disposal of bodies that will hamper war crimes investigations. Kosovar Albanian refugees continue to report both mass and individual summary executions throughout the province.

Refugee reports of Serbian mass executions claim over 6,000 ethnic Albanian deaths; the number would be far higher if we added the countless tales of individual murder. The organized and individual rape of ethnic Albanian women by Serb security forces is continuing to be reported by Kosovar refugees. According to refugees, Serb forces have conducted systematic rapes in Dakovica and at the Karagac and Metohia hotels in Pec.

excerpt from an article:

Gnjilane, Aug 27 99 (Tanjug) - The discovery of another mass grave with bodies of 50 Serbs in the Gnjilane area demonstrates that atrocities continue to be perpetrated by rampaging ethnic Albanian terrorists against Serbs in Kosovo-Metohija since the arrival of international KFOR peacekeepers.

Serbs who wanted to find out the fate of their relatives or friends after the discovery of a first grave with 15 bodies, were told by an unnamed UN police officer that another grave with 50 bodies had been found in the vicinity of Gnjilane and that investigation would be undertaken soon, Tanjug has learned from well informed sources.

Serbs fear that the terrorist "KLA" has committed a series of mass crimes against non ethnic Albanian civilians, as many Serbs have been reported missing in the area since KFOR's arrival at the end of June.
________________________________________

**** with all this included an analysis of the OSCE book "As Seen As Told; Part II" dated June to October 1999. The following was determined:

Total Mass graves from June 1999 to September 1999 was 59.
Mass graves with 0-8 bodies was 35 sites.

2 sites with zero bodies
9 sites with one body
9 sites with two bodies
2 sites with three bodies
4 sites with four bodies
2 sites with five bodies
1 site with six bodies
3 sites with seven bodies
3 sites with eight bodies (Total 110)

14 sites with 12-30 bodies (Total 280)

4 sites with 42-50 bodies (187)
1 site with 89 bodies
1 site with 104 bodies

Total number of bodies found: 770
Total number of unidentified bodies (out of the 770) was 184.
________________________________________

* It is noted these figures comes directly from the OSCE Report “As Seen As Told” Volume II, covering the dates from June to October 1999. The analysis above comes from the third annex of the report. The report includes a listing of gravesites from the conflict that was documented by the OSCE in co-ordination with local organizations and the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY).

** Of particular interest is the gravesite reported in Izbica/Izbice, Srbica/Skenderaj that reported a massacre of civilians took place in Izbica at the end of April 1999. Villagers buried the bodies, and the burial was "documented by the UCK on videotape".... Supposedly, on 2 June, Serb forces "removed" the bodies to an unknown destination. The ICTY team arrived at the beginning of July and exhumed 142 graves.......ALL WERE EMPTY. (Note below)

*** It is also noted that the KLA massacred K-Albanians and K-Serbs as well. Deception is the key word here from all sides.

**** These figures don't take into account the revenge killings and the "gravesites" found after the revenge killings. One in particular mentioned in the report was fund on July 24, 1999 near Podgradje/Pogradje. OSCE documented the site, which included visible body parts (feet, buttocks), and empty cartridge cases. An ICTY team arrived to exhume the bodies during the week of 6 August 1999. Eleven bodies were found in the grave. Two additional bodies were found on 6 August 1999 in the river near the gravesite. One of the Ranilug victims was a Serb Policeman who had been absent from the village during the conflict, and operating in another area. The OSCE was also notified about a house in the nearby village of Ugljare that was used as an alleged UCK (KLA), detention facility. They visited the house and observed walls in the cellar that appeared to have been painted with oil in an attempt to mask bloodstains. KFOR's investigation led to the arrest of a K-Albanian who denied involvement in the killings but did admit to robbies near Ranilug on 10 July 99. He also admitted to being a member of the KLA coming from Macedonia. On 26 October 99, KFOR revisted the graves and found another body. A side note mentioned that the OSCE had received similar reports about the house in Ugljare and reported the information to KFOR who visited the site that was then empty. there is more to this story, about the robberies and kidnappings on July 10....

NOTE: During the ICTY trials, it was stated that the attack on a refugee column near Vucitrn and the massacre in Izbica, which together resulted in over two hundred casualties.

Then two Serb policemen who had come to The Hague as "unwilling insiders" confirmed that the operation to remove all traces of crimes committed in Kosovo and the hushing-up of the scandal about the refrigerator truck full of corpses in the Danube were carried out on instructions from top-level politicians, namely the then interior minister Vlajko Stojiljkovic and president Slobodan Milosevic according their their testimony. Keeping in mind of the political agenda of giving possible false testimony in order to justify Milosevic's arrest. Then, it could be possible that they were telling the truth.

There then followed a presentation of forensic findings, which established that some of the corpses discovered in mass graves at a police training range in Batajnica, near Belgrade, were Albanians killed in Kosovo and later transferred to Serbia in a well- organised operation. This possibility has been challenged, by other sources.

http://www.iwpr.net/index.php?apc_state=hen&s=o&o=archive/tri/tri_279_1_eng.txt
________________________________________

"Ethnic Cleansing in Kosovo: An Accounting"

Report by The U.S. Department of State

"The investigation of atrocity sites and confirmation of death claims is currently an ongoing, laborious and time consuming task. The vast majority of death claims, though, have likely been recorded by international authorities. In sum, over 500 mass grave and killing sites have been recorded by the ICTY, KFOR and other international organizations. The total number of bodies reported to the ICTY at over 500 gravesites is over 11,000. Of these 500-plus sites, the ICTY has confirmed completion of field investigations at about 200 sites, as of early November 1999. Over 2,100 bodies have been confirmed to be found by investigators at over 160 sites, or an average of about 11 bodies per site."

http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/kosovoii/atrocit.html
________________________________________

Another Mass Grave In Malisheva Is Being Investigated

12 Aug 99 (Zeri) – The workers of Office for Missing Persons and UNMIK forensic teams from Prishtina, lead by their Chief, Pablo Baraybar, started searching for another mass grave in the territory of Malisheva Municipality.
The searches are being made in the same location where three months ago a mass grave with 13 bodies was found, according to the information’s they belonged to the Serbian nationality.

Since Thursday in Mirdita neighborhood of Malisheva, two diggers are working on digging the ground and searching for the mass graves. Argentinean Special Forces are securing the location with tape and a sign to not cross into the area.

So far no bodies has been found according to the Baraybar. The office that is led by him has information that 10 to 13 bodies are in these mass graves, which they suppose are Serbs.

The new searches, according to Baraybar, will continue until they find the bodies. He has information’s that the new mass grave is somewhere near the mass grave that has been found in May of this year.

New mass graves of Serbs near Gnjilane

August 28, 1999

Another mass grave of Serbs
Gnjilane, Aug 27 (Tanjug) - The discovery of another mass grave with bodies of 50 Serbs in the Gnjilane area demonstrates that atrocities continue to be perpetrated by rampaging ethnic Albanian terrorists against Serbs in Kosovo-Metohija since the arrival of international KFOR peacekeepers.

Serbs who wanted to find out the fate of their relatives or friends after the discovery of a first grave with 15 bodies, were told by an unnamed UN police officer that another grave with 50 bodies had been found in the vicinity of Gnjilane and that investigation would be undertaken soon, Tanjug has learned from well informed sources.

Serbs fear that the terrorist "KLA" has committed a series of mass crimes against non ethnic Albanian civilians, as many Serbs have been reported missing in the area since KFOR's arrival at the end of June.

KFOR spokesmen made no mention of the latest crime at their regular press briefing Friday.

Embittered by KFOR's benevolent attitude towards terrorist atrocities, several hundred Serbs blocked Thursday about 1 p.m. the Gnjilane-Bujanovac road, demanding that the murderers be brought to justice and that Zoran Stevanovic and Slobodan Antic, abducted Wednesday on the Gnjilane-Prilepnica road, in an attack organized by the new waterworks director, ethnic Albanian Ramadan Gajtani, be released.

Relatives of abducted Serbs who wanted to identify the victims were banned by a KFOR officer from seeing the bodies, which were taken secretly during the night to the Pristina forensic institute.

Systematic terror against Serbs in the area continues, as the "KLA" is trying to cut the corridor linking Serb enclaves in the province with Serbia.

On Thursday, Gradimir Stolic was abducted, the house of Lazar Mitic was torched, and bombs were thrown at the homes of Vladimir Denic in Gnjilane and of the Djurovic and Stojanovic families in Gracanica.

http://www.serbia-info.com/news/1999-08/28/14126.html

I might add one additional bit of information that I find quite odd. Carla Del Ponte, said tht forensic teams have now exhumed 2,108 bodies from mass graves in Kosovo/Kosova. She claims that only a third of the 529 reported gravesites have been exhumed, and 11,334 deaths have been reported to the ICTY. When K-Albanians returned to Kosovo at the end of the air campaign they began searching for missing family and friends. In June, July and August numerous exhumations were underway throughout Kosovo. OSCE members attended the exhumations and were trained to do so. The information they obtained was shared with ICTY and ICRC.

I arrived in October and the book "Kosovo/Kosova: As Seen, As Told, Part II", only records the 770 bodies. In addition, the bodies were not identified as being murdered by Serbs, KLA, results of the bombing, etc. Most of the circumstances were recorded by hearsay.

So we have two problems with Del Ponte's numbers.

1) They are not the numbers you get when you add the press reports of bodies found in 'mass graves.
2) Her figures are much lower - as much as several hundred thousand lower - than the numbers NATO gave out to justify the bombing.

So, I am wondering how the ICTY came up with the figure of 2,108. Could it be a that Del Ponte hoped that by offering a compromise between NATO's previous estimates of huge numbers and the critics' estimates of several hundred dead - that by having the ICTY publicly offer this compromise she would halt further speculation? This would be similar to the tactic of starting a small forest fire to head off a larger one.

In addition researchers like former UN Gen. Mackenzie have scanned published reports and come up with a count of several hundred dead, not 2108. In a reasonably-conducted police procedure this would prove nothing because police are not supposed to broadcast every piece of evidence as it is uncovered and therefore one would not expect to derive accurate body-count from newspaper reports. But the ICTY has conducted its investigation in an unusual fashion.

I suggest you ponder this info and lets investigate further. This is becoming quite interesting. I'm glad you asked the question. It actually brings up more questions that are quite signficant.

Easy answer, you don't have much else to bring up...DUH!

No, because as you proved yet again, over the course of three disjointed, rambling posts, it reduces you to a sad display of attempted misdirection and compounding of error.

lets investigate further

How's about let's you:

1. Admit your mistake in making your "No mass graves of K-Albanians in Kosovo" discovered either during the periods after the NATO occupation up until your arrival, or during your time in Kosovo, and that you be unambiguous and concise in your correction.

2. Get up to speed on what's transpired on the subject in the last 6 years, rather than reproducing material from 1999 or 2000 that has been long superceded by information which gives an accurate picture of events as they stand today.

3. Confine your cutting and pasting to single paragraph excerpts, building the body of your posts with your own words. Because reading your posts is like watching a videotape produced by an unsupervised kindergarten film editing class.

M'kay?

I'm not amenable to wading through 15 minutes worth of reading with some vague hope of finding the proverbial needle in a haystack. All the investigation required to settle this matter has already been done, so it's up to you to get up to speed and be a man about either accepting correction or correcting your own misstatements rather than just trying to build a smokescreen to hide behind.

Good Mohammedans are often dead Mohammedans.

Coincidence? We think not!

Hoppie,

You are always the pain in the ass. :) I bet your mama got tired of your irresponsibility and boys picking on you causing you to come home crying. :)

I gave you the facts, cut and paste from good sources as I don't have the hours you have to cut and paste biased information. You have unknowingly allowed me to show how irresponsible the Clinton Administration was in reporting and lying about the justifications for bombing the Balkans.

The mistake was not made as I was correct when I said that no mass graves were found while I was there. Now, if you call a mass grave of one body a mass grave then you are no better than your Daddy.....Billy Bob Clinton. This is a serious discussion as Del Ponte stated over 2,000 dead.....and 500+ mass graves. The Clinton Admin stating 10,000 + and both were lying. Which it clearly shows.

So, what information has superceded this.....None! that is true. If you don't want the cut and paste don't write. I will cut and paste words that I find fits my ideas.....I don't have the time, Hoppie....and, I'm not taking the time. If that bothers you, don't write. You waste my time talking to an idiot and liar.

[quote] I'm not amenable to wading through 15 minutes worth of reading with some vague hope of finding the proverbial needle in a haystack. All the investigation required to settle this matter has already been done[quote]

****** If you aren't amenable, then that is your personal problem and not mine. I'm okay with it. This is apparently an issue you either need help on or just growing up and accepting it. simple.......

The smokescreen and investigations that you are talking about are spins that the past administration spun to cover their BS and lies to justify the bombing. The proof is in the figures.......where are the bodies? Where are the mass graves? The DOS build their book on hearsay......

or, show me where the 10,000 bodies are....show me where the 2,108 bodies are......Talking about the ones in Serbia.....? The Serbs had to come up with bodies to satisfy the Hague and get in good graces with the International community. I know for an absolute fact, coming from an American investigator, that 600 bodies were set to be given to the UN several years ago. The UN refused to take them.....then, after a some tricky maneuvers they were forced to take them....and told the Albanians community that they were Albanians found in Serbia. This included a part equaled the family members. Pieces, torso's, and partial bodies. They didn't do full DNA testing and basically lied to some family members. So, the Albanians that lied that they had lost a family member when the family member was in Europe or the U.S. had a good laugh when they received the piece saying he/she was found. Bad policy wouldn't you say.......there's more.....I don't have the time to go into detail about that little operation.....

mmmmmmmm'kay.....So, little boy, get your beauty sleep, brush your tooth, and gargle with your cheap whiskey.......seriously if you have a problem with these posts, don't write.....otherwise, lie to someone else.

Sigh. You don't get to just ignore whatever facts don't fit into your delusional worldview, Tom.

The OTP conducted exhumations in Kosovo during 1999 and 2000.

During the 1999 season, 195 gravesites were exhumed, with 2,108 bodies disinterred, or ~11 bodies per gravesite exhumed.

During the 2000 season, 325 gravesites were exhumed, with 1,577 bodies disinterred, or ~5 bodies per gravesite exhumed.

Again working with the assistance of professionals provided to my Office by UN Member States and Switzerland, our teams assessed a further 325 sites, exhumed 1577 bodies and found incomplete remains in a further 258 instances. source

As 3 or more bodies do a mass grave make, statistically, Tom, you're a liar.

And a pretty damned bad one at that.

So save your stupid little anecdotes for the idiots who still believe you Tom. Your credibility is shot, and your utility as an "expert" has been degraded with each and every post you've addressed to me. You appear incapable of thinking in a rational manner, and the frustration engendered infantile insults you pepper your posts with will wind up damaging your reputation far more than they ever could personally affect me.

Would it have killed you to be a man and be honest for once?

We don't want to ignore any facts, as my worldview is well beyond yours as far as the real world. I do see that you are there to spin.

[quote]During the 1999 season, 195 gravesites were exhumed, with 2,108 bodies disinterred, or ~11 bodies per gravesite exhumed.[quote]

****Well, first of all, I gave you the info I knew at the time. Secondly, these figures are not accepted by the many official sources certainly for the 1999 season. If so, the official OSCE report is incorrect and that is not my concern if they got it wrong. It's also not my concern if your "Office" is full of crap, which is also a possibility. It is known that the U.S. Policy was pro-Albanian and KLA. Your count of mass graves is not acceptable as it is highly likely the figure for the 2000 season is a set up and low enough as to dig up a graveyard and call it a mass grave. Your figures don't hold water and certainly can't be trusted.

This is very curious for me as I attended most all UN and KFOR Security meetings, and mass graves were almost never mentioned.

[quote]As 3 or more bodies do a mass grave make, statistically, Tom, you're a liar.[quote]

I am aware of the 3+, however, notice the ones that the OSCE reported as one grave. So, we can of course subtract those that are one. But that is only pennies as you have another agenda in mind. In any case, you have some severe psychological issues, seriously. I'm wondering if you had or have a clearance how it is that you keep it as being mentally stable is one of the criteria. Or, did you lose your job? Either way, it's not important.

[quote] Your credibility is shot, and your utility as an "expert" has been degraded with each and every post you've addressed to me. You appear incapable of thinking in a rational manner, and the frustration engendered infantile insults you pepper your posts with will wind up damaging your reputation far more than they ever could personally affect me.[quote]

My credibility is fine. It's based on facts, research, and experience. But most of all, a word that you know nothing about, its called integrity and self respect. You have neither. These attacks are characteric of something more than some forum worm as you are. You are attacking my credibility for another reason. Maybe, because the articles, my effort to get the truth out is damaging some of your fellows in your worm farm. This is very interesting your display of emotion, hysterical rantings and actually your slander designed to provoke. What a waste and how embarrassing for you.

[quote]You appear incapable of thinking in a rational manner, and the frustration engendered infantile insults you pepper your posts with will wind up damaging your reputation far more than they ever could personally affect me.[quote]

This is an interesting sentence. :) What you don't realize as most can, after reading this, is that you are actually describing yourself exactly. You are some head case or I'm really making an impact on someone, thank you for the complement, although obscure. If I weren't effective you would not take the time or make the signficant effort to respond in this hysterical manner.

Are you a cross dresser by chance....I don't mean to get too personal. Just curious. You do fit the profile.

[quote]Would it have killed you to be a man and be honest for once?[quote]

***** :)) This is precious. You do have a touch for being dramatic or are you must being a little mauldin for the spirits....:)) Eventually, I'll tire of this wasteful exchange of words and just pass you by but continue to post. As a matter of fact, we are designing a blog to get the word out.....whoa, didn't know that did you? Now, you better get moving to find it. We are only increasing the output. You, are encouraging me by your posts and futile attempts to provoke. I was informed that you actually brag about getting folks banned from forums. This is a pathetic trait that you have.

Sleep well...........I'll be getting back to you shortly.

flagged......very interesting exchange.

Well Hoplite your being a goof once again. What makes you an authority on Kosovo you egotistical dope! A common weekend warrior with nothing more to do but be full of himself. I will repeat myself what makes you an authority on Kosovo. Your an idot, an unpopular idiot at that...

I got to hand it to you, your ego writes checks your mouth can't cash. :))

Classic.

Hoplite is rapidly becoming so full of sh*t that his depends are beginning to stress beyond their capacity.

Disgruntled hero-wannabe, the only thing remotely close to your expertise in international affairs is the International House of Pancakes(IHOP). All Americans have seen the commercials....

Would you prefer that we call you IHOPPY?

flagged....

Whenever there is a calamity, the death toll estimates are usually higher than the real death toll. See this article about 9/11 as an example. Only in Srebrenica case, inflated advance billing was kept and Serbs are expected to pay up, regardless of solid evidence against it.

With the World Trade Center death toll shrinking to somewhere around 3,000, many hesitate to speak of a miracle or a success. But those are the words they are using when they remember that thousands of others got out alive before the towers collapsed. Many officials say the loss of life would have been many times higher if not for three factors: the timing of the attack, before the buildings had filled to their usual workday peak; emergency-evacuation improvements prompted by the 1993 terrorist bombing of the trade center; and the urgent reaction of workers, many of whom had been through the earlier attack. On Sept. 11, perhaps 18,000 people by one estimate evacuated the two 110-story towers in less than two hours. ``It looks like maybe 90 percent of the people in the buildings survived that day. It's amazing,'' said ............. the director. Reiss and others do not discount the devastation of the terrorist attack or the grief felt by the families of the dead. Yet in the initial hours after the attack, many feared that tens of thousands had been killed. Even weeks later, city officials estimated nearly 7,000 people had lost their lives. After fixing errors and removing duplicate names from the casualty lists, city officials say the death toll stands at about 3,000 and may drop further. The figure includes about 500 people who were not in the towers at the time of the attacks _ rescue workers who entered afterward and the people aboard the hijacked planes. ``Three-thousand people died, and one has a hard time saying anything about it is a success,'' said Michael Cherkasky, president of Kroll Associates, a security company that helped the trade center's owner, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, revamp evacuation procedures after the 1993 bombing.