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To: betty boop
" Maybe you are of the persuasion that reason was a discovery of the Enlightenment period."

Nope.

"It seems quite clear to me, in contrast, that reason had been discovered in mid-first-century B.C., in Athens."

I never even implied it wasn't a very old discovery.

" I don't need to point out again that this logos is, by nature and definition, nonphenomenal, nonrandom, immaterial, and "transcendent."

A very banal metaphysical point, having nothing to do with the validity of ID.

"But if you've never been a student of human cultural history, then one can't blame you for having a "blind spot." Maybe it's just a lacuna that your experience in the future will supply. I hope so."

I have studied ancient philosophy. I just don't try to make a very basic fact of existence (the intelligibility of the universe) into the center of some new age philosophy of spirits and *mind* that the evidence doesn't warrant.
121 posted on 02/13/2006 5:23:14 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman; Alamo-Girl; marron; hosepipe; xzins; gobucks; TXnMA; PatrickHenry; balrog666; ...
Me: "I don't need to point out again that this logos is, by nature and definition, nonphenomenal, nonrandom, immaterial, and "transcendent."

You: A very banal metaphysical point, having nothing to do with the validity of ID.

But we're not talking about ID at this very moment, nor have we for the past several posts. We were speaking of reason and logic, logos.

Somehow, CG, I don't think you have a problem with my description of logos as "non-phenomenal," "non-random," and "immaterial." But perhaps the "transcendent" claim is a stumbling block.

What is meant by the term? For openers, it's the antonym (though I prefer the term "complementarity," in Niels Bohr's sense) of immanent. Which sheds a whole lot of light on the problem -- NOT!

Anyone can go look up those two terms in any good dictionary. But what do they mean? This you have to figure out for yourself.

My proposal would be as follows: Immanence pertains to things that arise in, exist through, and ultimately perish in and from 4-dimensional reality: 3 of space and 1 of time. This is the "physical" world.

Transcendence is that which is not confined within the "4D block" of x, y, z + t.

If that sounds farfetched, or "New-Ager," just consider this: The thought you have in your mind right now is nonphenomenal, non-random, immaterial -- and transcendent: Because what you do with this thought is not determined by the phenomenal, random, or material.

Reason and free will are transcendent. Human liberty is transcendent. So is human creativity. So is logic, reason, science -- all human beings have a "transcendent extension," as the philosopher might put it. Something that is not predetermined by nor subject to the physical laws as such -- for the simple reason that it is not "physical," "random," or "material."

Julian Huxley, however, famously could not resist blowing a nasty raspberry at this sublime understanding: He referred to what I'm talking about here as "the ghost in the machine."

Personally, I take that as an insult to human being.

Thanks for writing, CarolinaGuitarman -- you're a good conversationalist.

129 posted on 02/13/2006 5:51:45 PM PST by betty boop (Often the deepest cause of suffering is the very absence of God. -- Pope Benedict XVI)
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