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To: TigersEye; HopefulPatriot
"A pledge of allegiance is not about knee-jerk patriotism it's about loyalty."

Very true.

HP, our Pledge of Allegiance is a pledge to uphold and submit to the rule of law. That's what our flag stands for -- jurisdiction, either civil or federal/military, depending on your current circumstance or commitments.

Our pledge of allegiance to the Republic is a pledge to uphold and defend the ideal of representative government -- upon which the strength of our Republic rests.

I see nothing negative or socialistic about partaking in the public affirmation of that pledge. It's comforting to know that there are more people in this country who participate in the Pledge than those who don't. May it ever be so.

154 posted on 11/11/2005 6:54:40 PM PST by Eastbound
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To: Eastbound; TigersEye; HopefulPatriot
"And, in spite of the best efforts of many, instances of injustice have, are and probably always will occur. You're either with us or against us... HP, our Pledge of Allegiance is a pledge to uphold and submit to the rule of law."

HP, Please allow me to address this issue.

No one is suggesting that we do not owe allegiance to our country against a common foreign or domestic foe. But I urge you to use caution when adopting the attitude that the government or its leaders always know best and that their judgment should always be trusted over your own individual judgment. Those who do not learn the lessons of history will repeat its mistakes. The history of the 20th century, theoretically the most advanced intellectual century, is that any individual on the planet is more likely to be killed by his own government than by any foreign or domestic enemy. Let's look at a few thoughts and excerpts from the great minds of the past:

I think a very powerful case can be made for doing what we know to be right regardless of the rule of law or any allegiances that result from our location. There are clearly settings where any patriot would lay down the life in the defense of country. But the idea that you can only be a partriot with the notion of my country- right or wrong is a very dangerous precept. Substituting rituals for carefully reasoned thought makes the path to tyranny easier. Understanding the history and principles of what made this country great makes genuine patriots and pledges are relegated to the tools of tyranny.

As a side, but somewhat related issue are oaths. I served at the time of the draft. I took the oath that all military officers take. In contrast, my son served since the all voluntary military. He took the same oath but at a different point in time. Without going into too many details, there could have been settings during my time of service in which I would not have laid down my life in the defense of my country. It is important to understand the distinction; the oath I took was not strictly voluntary. It carried with it the not so veiled threat of having to leave the country, serve or spend some time in jail. I can't speak for my son, but I have no doubt in my mind that he would have lived or died as a result of the oath that he took. There is no greater evil than an unjust government. It literally preys on the loyalties and allegiances of its people to do them harm. Rituals are no substitute for rational thought, maybe ever. I am sure that great military minds will counter that duty and obedience are the bedrock of combat. I have never been in combat and cannot say from experience. What I know is that rational thought is what sets man apart from animals. What do we become when we cease to think?

155 posted on 11/12/2005 7:13:25 AM PST by Reaganghost (Democrats are living proof that you can fool some of the people all of the time.)
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