Posted on 09/10/2005 9:23:00 PM PDT by Blogger
Seriously, I, too, have a problem with this framing of this issue because it suggests that Christians -- that includes me -- support the nation of Israel and are reasonably supportive of a Jewish nation because there's something in it for us, as in, that we are selfishly motivated in these issues.
God DOES say that the Israelites are His people. He also says that the Israelites are rejecting of Him and His love, certainly of His son, Jesus. But, that that's the trial right there (a huge one, no less). And, in the New Testament, we're told we are all "children of Abraham" who love God and Christ as His only son...
Thus, the mystery of God, no doubt. I think it's best to do what He says or at least to continue to try to figure out what He wants us to do and why.
I am of the perspective in faith, however, that does not assign hardship and disasters to God, but to the evil that affects our world, this human existence, our "fallen world." God allows it such that we grow in faith, but so far, He has withheld his wrath upon the world and from what He says about His wrath, we just have no idea YET how terrible His judgement will be, when He does bring it.
Until then, we are subject to the ongoing harassment of evil in a fallen world, but we have the utmost of helps and that's Jesus Christ and faith in God the Father with the helps of the Holy Spirit. Have faith and never ascribe disasters to God, who is most holy and most completely good.
"Can you give me a verse where he does, either during, or after Jesus' testament short of his second coming?"
Act 16:26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Classic example of an act of nature bringing about fear and repentance. An act of nature by God does not always cause people to repent but in this case it did.
Here is the hand of God in the natural/nature relm:
Mat 27:51-54 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;And the graves were opened...Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Some more excellent verses on God using and being directly involved in nature and judgment:
Nah 1:3 The LORD [is] slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit [the wicked]: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds [are] the dust of his feet.
Nah 1:4 He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth.
Nah 1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
Nah 1:6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
Nah 1:7 The LORD [is] good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.
Nah 1:8 But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.
So where's the part where Jesus levels a city and kills thousands in retribution for sin?
Second coming, yes. Until then, I don't see where it says that.
What I'm saying is that, as a pastor, when asked about the reasons for the hurricane, the tsunami, or any other natural disaster, I've stopped the spiritualized speculation, and just say the true and "unspiritual" thing - "I don't know".
I respect that.
I can say with absolute confidence New Orleans will be hit again, eventially by a category 5.
It will happen. It is only a matter of time.
I thank God for giving us the smarts to build satellites so we can see them coming with more warning.
I wish we had the smarts to forecast earthquakes... One day maybe...
Thanks.
It's certainly clear to me that there's a correlation regardless of it's . . . coarseness.
If God made everything a 1:1 correlation that was 100% of the time 100% obvious, He'd have a ton of 'rice Christians.'
I think He will, in the closing portions of the END TIMES end up being that clear at times and perhaps most of the time.
Until then, I think He deliberately leaves plenty of room for rationalization of the rebels in order to prevent hangers on who don't really have and aren't at all really interested in a heart-felt relationship with Him.
The wise are perceptive and seek God's truth and the aid of Holy Spirit in discerning it, finding it and digging it out.
Thanks for your part in that.
For sure.
Great article. Thanks.
One would have to be pretty gullible to believe the implication of this story, to wit: that if the US hadn't been involved in those political shenanigans, the storms would not have come.
Yes. God is well able and given to individual personal accountability--certainly eventually and ultimately.
For some reason He ALSO TENDS at different periods in history and perhaps regarding Israel, most of the time--to hold families, groups, neighborhoods, communities, cities, nations accountable.
He did it throughout the Old Testament.
He has done it in the modern era.
Partly it can be ascribed to the universal law He has put in place--WE REAP WHAT WE SOW--INDIVIDUALLY,
AND
COLLECTIVELY. Period.
When church attendance rises in a community significantly,
crime goes down quite significantly. It has been so throughout the history of the USA.
I have pondered the issue of individual accountability vs collective accountability a lot over the years. I'm quite convinced that God has HIS PURPOSES for doing it the somewhat coarse wholesale way when He chooses to. He is NOT capricious.
And, I think it is vital to keep in mind some essential facts:
1) The WORST SUFFERINGS OF THIS LIFE are NOT worthy to be compared to the glories of the next. This is true for humans of every age; innocents of every age; earnest Believers of every age. God said it. I believe it.
2) There is ample evidence that in moments of extreme suffering and even dramatic excruciating deaths--God's Spirit and even angelic forces are even more intensely WITH the innocents and Believers. During the Inquisition, saints wished for the torture to continue that they might experience that increased intensity of Christ's PRESENCE.
And, many tales have come forward over the ages of the tortured passing from this life in this or that tragedy being cushioned and comforted, eased by dramatic miraculous intervention from the Heavenly realm.
Essentially, what appears to have been and was a supreme suffering tragedy from the perspective of natural man has routinely been transformed into a glorious graduation on the spiritual plain.
3) Many white-washed folks who consider themselves pristine paragon examples of righteousness are white-washed tombs in God's eyes. Sometimes Only God knows for sure a heart's state and attitude toward Him.
4) We and all Creation exists for God's Glory. We and it are His to spend as He sees fit. As Corrie Ten Boom often illustrated, the underside of the tapestry is an ugly tortured mess. But each twisted convoluted thread produces on the picture side a glorious combinaton, sequence, arrangement.
5) The fact remains--God blesses those who bless Israel and curses those who Curse Israel--individually AND collectively. Eternity will show abundant truth of that. Individuals, families, neighborhoods, communities, cities, nations ignore that at their own great peril.
You see--once upon a time, God had a buddy--Abraham--a great Friend. Talk about Big Brother--God is the ultimate Big Brother. Better not let Him catch you even just speaking ill of His Buddy. He doesn't respond kindly to such suicidal craziness.
Of course, we still have enough free will to tell God He's not doing it right according to our prescription and construction on reality. I'm sure God is similarly impressed with our assessments of Him as He is impressed with the stupidity of going against the apple of His eye.
Can one hear laughter in the halls of Heaven?
As Bill Cosby said long ago in his Noah skit:
NOAH, HOW LONG CAN YOU TREAD WATER?
Taking out a bunch of poor people that literally have nothing to do with Israel as the wrath of God for poor treatment of Israel is simply nuts.
Well put. Thx.
If God didn't require Believers to dig deep truths out with Holy Spirit's help
then deep truths would be cheap chaff along with the rest of reality.
God has many treasures He requires refined perception to apprehend; diligent digging to lay hold of.
Keep at it. It's worth it.
Intimacy with God is the ultimate good.
Also the ultimate pleasure, comfort, peace, joy . . .
Most Believers I know do not believe there are any accidents for the believer which have not first passed through the Cross of Jesus, the Will of The Father.
The tree limb could mean many things. And, sometimes, God keeps His counsel.
It may mean He wanted the wife and kids Home with Him in a more overt, fuller way . . . that their trek here was finished.
It may mean He wanted to protect them from something down the road that would have hindered, corrupted, destroyed their relationship with Him.
It could mean many things.
Who are you to say otherwise?
It strikes me that all those cultures, as far as I recall, were violent and blood thirsty wholesale during their existence or for great periods during their existence.
Some have also been known for horrendous and wide spread corruption.
Some were particularly blood thirsty on a grand scale.
None very well acknowledged nor worshiped The God above all Gods. The Chinese did slightly one time a year. Otherwise, it was tyranny as usual.
But it did not change reaping what we sow.
It did not change His blessing those who bless Israel and cursing those who curse Israel. Revelation is clear enough on that score.
The Proverbs were written for all time.
Evidently it's been a while since you read them and pondered these issues while reading them.
Quite so. Thanks.
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