Inside Story on Schiavo Case

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2005/03/inside-story-on-schiavo-case.html ^

[DBeers]

sadly -very true...

[demlosers]

Once a trial court enters a judgment into the record, that judgment's findings become THE FACTS of the case, and can only be overturned if the fact finder (in this case, the judge) acted capriciously (i.e., reached a conclusion that had essentially no basis in fact).

Which has become painfully obvious here at FR.

[Moxie18]

American justice: for sale to the highest bidder.

[NonValueAdded]

A VERY IMPORTANT perspective. We've all heard the arguments that 19, then 20, and now who knows how many judges have "reviewed this case." Well, how many of those actually determined the facts? It seems to be only one. Now maybe some of those appellate judges did look at Greer's decisions to see if he made errors in law or a decision so off the wall that it had to be reversed. But when it came down to questions of "he said, she said," it appears that they all deferred to Greer. In our judicial system is there any provision for de novo review? Or is it that unless we can come up with new facts, the first judge to decide is casting in concrete? That is a key question and one that should make us take a little more care when voting for local judges.

[Servant of the 9]

Terri Schiavo's family were outlawyered and

Once a trial court enters a judgment into the record, that judgment's findings become THE FACTS of the case, and can only be overturned if the fact finder (in this case, the judge) acted capriciously (i.e., reached a conclusion that had essentially no basis in fact).

Judge Greer would have had to legislate from the bench and be a hyperactivist judge to reach any other conclusion on inadequate evidence, and so would any other court to overturn him.

We spend a lot of time here venting anger about overreaching judges, and here some of you are angry because this judge follows the law.

We got furious with Clinton for overreaching to sieze Elian Gonzales and send him back to Cuba, and now here some of you are angry at both the brothers Bush for not overreaching and siezing Terri Shiavo.

How about a little consistency.

So9

[Unknown Freeper]

Once a trial court enters a judgment into the record, that judgment's findings become THE FACTS of the case, and can only be overturned if the fact finder (in this case, the judge) acted capriciously (i.e., reached a conclusion that had essentially no basis in fact).

It amazes me that so many people do not understand what appellate courts do. People in the media (and here) were talking as if each court addressed the facts of the case. At some point in the future, I would love to hear some discussion on what the Schindlers could have done differently as they went through this legal process.

[wingman1]

I listened yesterday to Hannity on the radio where he interviewed a woman named Kessler or Keller. She had produced an affadavit saying that Michael Schiavo has told her he had no idea as to Terri's wishes. As she related her testimony, it was obviously in favor of the Schindler family and would have been useful.

Sean Hannity asked why she had not been allowed to testify. She then said that Terri's parents did not want for her (and I assume others who gave affadavits) to get in the middle of this ugly situation.

If you are not prerpared to fight like a dog when you go to court, you will lose.

Very sad.

[cajungirl]

I think so. Bad lawyering and a family feud fueled by two very very stubborn people. That was what got this to the place we are now. I am convinced MS is torturing those parents to the best of his ability. My guess is he was a pretty insubstantial person before all this and this happenes with parents and sons in law, usually it isn't fought out on this battleground.

The most morally reprehensible thing here, aside from the starvation of this woman, is MS's determination to bring as much pain to terri's parents as is possible. It would not have been a hard thing for him to walk away from this and leave terri, whatever her condition, to her parents. I do not think she would have gotten much better but at least she would have teeth, no contractures and would have been wheeled around in the nice sunshine and brought comfort to her mother. That is such a humane thing to have done. But he in his incredible psychopathic stubborness and narcissism let this unfold.

Not the end of the republic, no demons here in my opinion. Just bad lawyers and a family that couldn't rise above itself. Not unusal when you think about it. Now Felos and the right to die crowd, they are alarming and just plain weird.

[cajungirl]

Right. And when you have a son in law, even a bastard controlling not very smart one, get along with him as best you can. And never expect him to pay you back for your help. Your daughter's life may depend on it.

I have never understood people who let themselves get into these horrible struggles with children in law.

[joesbucks]

Ok, so justice is for sale. The more experienced atty with resources stands a better chance at victory than one with less experience and fewer resources.

Yet our country is also based on a free market system. Those who have the wealth get to hire the the bigger guns.

What would be your proposal to level the playing field.

Honestly, probably the only people interested in the case would be activist Christian attorney's. Most other attorney's either saw lack of financial opportunity or that Michael would likely prevail anyhow as the law would weigh more in his favor as spouse than the parents. The Schindler's probably had a weak case at best and probably only got as far as it did when they engaged the ativist Christian attorneys and the groups like Randal Terry's and Flip Benhams that kept the fans flamed. In most situtations, whether morally right or wrong, this case probably never really had any legal footing.

[cajungirl]

It would be wonderful if we could all discuss this. There are so many complex things going on here aside from the law. But it is nigh impossible on FR now.

[Misty Memory]

Now Felos and the right to die crowd, they are alarming and just plain weird.

They are more than that. They are dangerous. Very soon "Right to die" will evolve into "Duty to die."

[hipaatwo]

Rita Cosby on Fox just had Bobby Schindler on. She asked Bobby if it was true that MS was looking at burial plots in 1993, he said yes. She is really disgusted by MS and his family. She is having MS family next, not sure if it's a live interview with her or what but I"m looking forward to watching.

[cajungirl]

It pains me when people don't know or cannot bring themselves to give up.

MS needed these people, he really did. But the mistrust, the narcissism on his part and I don't know what on Terri's fathers part, got in the way. I think her father is an engineer, ran his own business, is probably a pretty pragmatic realistic man. And he gets this son in law who is just a controlling macho loser. He couldn't hold a job for long, acted like a jerk and borrowed money, etc. They lived off her parents for a while. And I suspect the father was just getting more and more disillusioned by this jerky son in law and at some point his real feelings emerged.

I have talked about this case with my sons in law and they all agree, were this my daughter, I would be in total charge. They could take any money and go on their way to another life. But I am in charge of my daughters till I get to old to. They all agree {they love me and I love them}

[MTOrlando]

Judge Greer would have had to legislate from the bench and be a hyperactivist judge to reach any other conclusion on inadequate evidence, and so would any other court to overturn him.

Which is why Congress legislated that this type of case should be elevated to Federal court and be given de noveau status. This is one of the key places where the machinery of law broke down, when the congressional act was ignored by the federal courts.

[cajungirl]

Well, I wonder. Given that the boomers and my cutting edge gen {wwII Babies} are getting old, medicare is going broke and far as I can tell boomers are pretty well fixed. And we have these kids who cannot do as well financially, they really can't. Are they going to get itchy to take our money and off us in the name of saving govt money. I mean they won't off us personally, that wouldn't be acceptable, but there will be a general feeling that why are we living up in our 80's just using up resources that the children need.

Grim indeed isn't it!

[farmer18th]

Once a trial court enters a judgment into the record, that judgment's findings become THE FACTS of the case, and can only be overturned if the fact finder (in this case, the judge) acted capriciously (i.e., reached a conclusion that had essentially no basis in fact). Which has become painfully obvious here at FR.

Why have an appeals system at all if the facts of the case can't be disputed? This seems to be one more example of a judiciary that has made idiosyncratic rules for itself, truth be damned.

It is also one more reason why George or Jeb should have stepped in and broken the judiciary to pieces, so that it can be restored.

By the way, if you haven't read it, order "Men in Black" from Freerepublic. It's a hillarious chronicle of our very human, very imperfect judiciary.

A real cowboy in the White House would have fixed this by now.

[cajungirl]

I am not a lawyer but my understanding is the same as the poster above, the trial judge's findings of fact are sort of set unless he does a procedural error. Think about it, if every trial had to be redone on appeal the wheels of justice would stop.

I do think that people in a pvs or mcs who don't have a living will should not have feeding tubes withdrawn or catheters, or basic care. And if there is a dispute, the advantage should go to life.

[silverleaf]

Yes the Schiavos (and Jeb Bush) have been outlawyered at every point by Felos. Felos' association with Judge Greer (being a political contributor to the Judge at the very least and perhaps more to come) has worked to ensnare Terri in a "perfect storm" of zealotry for "the right to die".

It's almost as if Felos had sized up Michael Schiavo (naive, lower middle class, extremely controlling, arrogant, greedy, narcissistic, selfish, a wad of cash in his pocket and a lot more to come, and possibly guilty of malfeasance aginst his wife) and chosen Terri Schiavo as the case he woould use to outgame the system and advance his personal passion for the "right to death" to a new plane.

The game plan was put into play when Terri was transferred to the hospice in which Felos held a management interest, and her treatment plan (designed to deconstruct her condition, not rehabilitate) was put into effect.

Feeding tube, NO therapy or stimulation (Felos even objected in court to Terry's family drawing the blinds to let sunlight into her room when they visited, as Terri was kept in darkness), isolation from all outside contacts including family, and esteem building for husband to bolster his belief that "this was what Terri would have wanted".

And all the "treatment" plan for Terri ordered by judicial decree to smallest detail. With any changes or deviations subject to judicial review and threat of legal retaliation. Which ensured total intimidation of the Hospice staff.

And Felos forcing the family to accede to judicial finding that Terri was in PVS state, in return for some concession by Michael- a maneuver that has doomed the family's efforts to revisit the original judicial decision that she was to die.

Felos strikes me as one of those lawyers who revels in the joy of winning at any cost. And Judge Greer as an arrogant man with a definite pro-death bias against the incpacitated. An arrogant man who makes up his mind and is not dissuaded by any follow-on "facts", regardless.

Again, and sadly for Terri and her family- the "Perfect Storm" of ambitious self-serving players brought together in a dismal swamp of "justice".