[conservative_crusader]

yeah... you're right... But let me do some lateral movement here in this discussion. Not everything decays into lead.

let me add something to the given.

7.) The universe is expanding.

So, given an infinite amount of time, every star in the universe has been moving away from all other stars forever. So we can conclude, that because they have been moving forever, that every star system is an infinite distance from the next star system. However, we know that this is not true. Proxima Centauri is not very far from Sol when compared to other star systems, but if stars had been expanding forever, then every star would be infinitely far from earth. We know this is not true, therefore, the universe must have come into existence at some point in time.

[curiosity]

The fact that the universe is expanding and the fact that things are not inifinitley far from one another implies there was a point in time the universe started exapnding. How do you know it did not exist before it started expanding? Maybe it was just a clump of mass that sat around for eons before it started expanding.

[Safrguns]

yeah... you're right... But let me do some lateral movement here in this discussion. Not everything decays into lead. No CC... YOUR right. I interpreted your point #5 as saying that things break down into their basic elements. (LIKE lead) While it could have been worded better, with a little more applicable example, this IS what #5 says) Lead IS an element... just like carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, sulphur, etc. etc. Your point still stands.