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To: koba37

I observe behavior. You are investing a lot of energy into discrediting Golitsyn (and by extension, Angleton, and by further extension, the overall US policy regarding Communism from 1952 until ~ 1964).


194 posted on 02/04/2005 1:48:23 PM PST by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Take Back The GOP!)
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To: GOP_1900AD

"I observe behavior. You are investing a lot of energy into discrediting Golitsyn (and by extension, Angleton, and by further extension, the overall US policy regarding Communism from 1952 until ~ 1964)."

Your observations are incorrect. I'm not discrediting US policy regarding Communism during any period of time (well, perhaps during Roosevelt's tenure). I am discrediting Golitsyn AND Angleton because they deserve it. Angleton's relationship with Golitsyn caused a 10-year hold on important work - caused witch hunts which damaged good men. End result - no mole found, none of the accused found "guilty" of anything. Probably had a permanent negative impact on the CIA. For ANYONE to claim that Golitsyn is legit or some forward thinking intel Nostradamus is pure folly. Do the math:
Philby worked closely with Angleton, knew him well, knew his weakeness, and betrayed him when he defected (surely led to Angleton's manic paranoia - turned on his close confidants, etc).

Philby defects - goes to the Soviet Union. Imagine how interested the Sovs would be in Angleton. How they would want to know his weakenesses from Philby - a man who knew him well. Imagine how they could use this information to manipulate a very senior CIA officer (without him even realizing it).

Then, in Helsinki a junior KGB officer (Golytsin) defects and claims to have knowledge of 1st Directorate missions, when he was Counterintel. Makes a lot of claims that would cause (and did cause) suspicion. He ingratiated himself on Angleton. Angleton then starts his witchhunts causing a 10 year paralysis in the Soviet division and the counter-intel division - a paralysis and witch hunt that spilled over into the FBI. Ask yourself this: Who would gain more from this sort of situation? The CIA or the KGB? So, it's fairly easy to conclude that Golitsyn either never left the employ of the KGB, or bluffed his way and got lucky a few times. I believe the former over the latter. Regarding his time at the KGB Academy - as a junior officer he would not have been trained in what the author of the books claim he was. But just who was their source for the information on Golitsysn? Golitsyn himself. No way of verifying what he said. The KGB/FSB isn't going to confirm anything.

Plus, if you are the observant person you claim you are, don't you think it's odd that none of the Russian sites that list "traitors of the Motherland" have anything about Golitsyn? I sure do. After all, if he was the "most important defector from the Soviet Union or their Eastern satelites" don't you think he'd be villian number one? They have documentaries on spying on Russian TV all the time and NOTHING about Golitsyn. How do you explain this away?

Of course, now that Golitsyn's "mission" is over he has to fend for himself - so, he continues to stick to the same ol' story.

Don't you also find it out that the only source verification of articles on Golitsyn is Golitsyn? Come on, that doesn't pass any smell tests. It's about as useful as saying "Dan Rather said it."

It's also text book of Golitsyn to repeat over and over that anyone who tries to discredit him is either a fellow traveler or a dupe. That's classic. Oldest trick in the book. Seems a few people on here have fallen for it. (Something the KGB observed from the McCarthy Hearings [and no, I'm not saying McCarthy was wrong]- if people are afraid to be labeled Communist-sympathizer they'll shut the hell up).

Lastly, if you want to infer that I am somehow a Soviet apologist, or sympathizer, or Russophile, etc., go for it. I'll prove you wrong. I realize that Russia is far from perfect, that Putin is making serious errors, and that Russia has a loooooooong way to go. Basically the country is a mess. I don't need a friggin' book or newspaper article to tell me that. I observe it every day. First hand, throughout the former Soviet Union. And, I also see the potential that Russia has if they go down the right path, if they get up off of their knees. This is NOT a bad thing for us, the opposite is true - a self-confident proud Russia will act responsibly instead of like the truculent child it appears to be acting like now. Let's call that the "France Model."

Dragging this tired old Cold War crap out again and again and again is ridiculous and has no merit. Old habits die hard I guess. But, this is not only a problem in the US, it's a problem in Russia as well. Their "cold warriors" refuse to believe the US is not evil and intent on world domination so in their newspapers, or on the radio, or on the net you read the same ridiculous crap that TTS [and others] posts, except this time it's from the Russian viewpoint. And it's just as baseless.


195 posted on 02/04/2005 2:53:30 PM PST by koba37
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