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Airline Laser Threat
The Daily Brief ^ | January 1, 2005 | Phantom

Posted on 01/03/2005 3:36:03 PM PST by prairiebreeze

There has recently been a huge media feeding frenzy on the prospect of laser devices being used to blind pilots of commercial airliners. The reports note that no damage was done to the crew, and the planes landed safely.

There is an assumption that lasers are being used to blind pilots. The type of laser that could blind two pilots would, first, have to be highly sophisticated and expensive and, second, would have to hit the cockpit from the front of the aircraft. A difficult feat on an object moving over 300 miles per hour.

The recent events involved lasers pointed from the ground up. At over 8000 feet.

A laser is just like any other light source. It expands to infinity, unless the light source is restricted and confined. It is not uncommon these days for people, especially hunters, to have laser range finders. The least expensive will accurately provide a range up to 400 meters with a margin of error of 3 meters. Laser rangefinders used by hunters can reach 1200 meters, with expense multiplying at each interval.

An aircraft at 8500 feet is a different class of laser. To monitor a stationary target at the range would require a device that costs over $7000. A moving target, like an aircraft, moves us over $10,000.

I am not going to post the sites that have hardware that can track a plane over 3000 meters. Suffice it to say that there are many. Which brings us to the point of this article.

Lasers are not being used to blind pilots. Lasers are being used to measure straight line distance from the ground to an aircraft aircraft at its most vulnerable state - landing. An aircraft on takeoff would be a more difficult target - maximum power and maximum climb. But a landing ship slows down to a speed just short of a stall and follows a prescribed path of flight .

The information regarding an aircraft’s peak vulnerability would be invaluable. Documenting landing approaches and and straight line distances would be highly useful in target acquisition. That information is critical regarding available weapons systems.

Since 2002, the FBI has been issuing warnings about shoulder fired missiles being smuggled into the U.S. The effective range of older shoulder fired missiles is between 11,000 and 15,000 feet and can be fired from up to 3 miles away from the target. Newer models, which are already bring copied by the likes of North Korea, China and Pakistan have ranges exceeding 22,000 feet with greater stand off distances.

In September of 2003, the Department of Homeland Security began soliciting bids for anti-missile devices for commercial aircraft. That was the beginning of an 18 to 24 month screening process.

In late December of 2004, it was revealed that Los Angeles Airport (LAX) was increasing its preparedness for a shoulder fired missile attack. John Miller, head of the LAPD Counterterrorism Bureau, explained that about 20,000 shoulder-fired missiles were currently on the black market. The black market prices range from $5,000 to $30,000, presumably based on the vintage of the weapon.

We have seen how cost conscious terrorists tend to be. Why waste an investment of $5000 to $30,000 when it turns out your target is beyond the range of your black market missile.

The laser activity is more than likely a target acquisition exercise.

And people are taking notes.

There are too many cities and too many locations reporting laser incidents. In my view, they are calculating maximum ranges, with no intent to blind the crew.

Our enemies know full well the impact another threat to aviation security would have on this Country. They are trying to crash airships and cripple our transportation industry before we can equip commercial aircraft with effective countermeasures. It is telling that the LAPD is moving to protect LAX against a missile threat against increasing incidents of lasers targeting commercial aircraft.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: airline; airlinesecurity; laser; missiles; pilots; targeting
As I was posting this FoxNews reported another incident of laser aimed at airliner going from Nashville to Chicago.
1 posted on 01/03/2005 3:36:04 PM PST by prairiebreeze
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To: prairiebreeze

Yep that was #8 I just saw that too.


2 posted on 01/03/2005 3:37:36 PM PST by WestCoastGal ("If you can't run with the big dogs, you'd better go sit on the porch." (Daytona 48 days);-)
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To: prairiebreeze

It's just free Lasik vision correction surgery for aging pilots?


3 posted on 01/03/2005 3:41:05 PM PST by Dog Gone
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To: prairiebreeze
We have seen how cost conscious terrorists tend to be. Why waste an investment of $5000 to $30,000 when it turns out your target is beyond the range of your black market missile.
The laser activity is more than likely a target acquisition exercise.

One report was of a flashing green laser. Someone (I'm not a laser expert) noted that this indicates a diode-pumped laser -- a bit more expensive device.

But my question is, why do a measurement in such an obvious manner? I could get admittedly less accurate results, but good enough for this purpose, passively. No betraying beams, and a heck of a lot cheaper.

4 posted on 01/03/2005 3:45:19 PM PST by sionnsar († trad-anglican.faithweb.com † || Iran Azadi || Gregoirovich, NYET!! www.revotewa.com)
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To: RedBloodedAmerican

More on lasers...


5 posted on 01/03/2005 3:48:13 PM PST by MizSterious (First, the journalists, THEN the lawyers.)
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To: sionnsar
Don't you go bringing trigonometry into this.

Terrorism is bad enough as it is.

6 posted on 01/03/2005 3:49:28 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: sionnsar

Don't know.....which is why I posted the article, to get freeper insights.


7 posted on 01/03/2005 3:58:59 PM PST by prairiebreeze (The MSM becomes more marginalized and less significant by the minute.)
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To: prairiebreeze
Balogney..... Hi all,

First off, I am an Astronomy hobbyist that owns a Green Laser 5mw, as well as a Licensed FAA Private Pilot, Single Engine Land. PP-ASEL

Article said: "There is an assumption that lasers are being used to blind pilots. The type of laser that could blind two pilots would, first, have to be highly sophisticated and expensive and, second, would have to hit the cockpit from the front of the aircraft. A difficult feat on an object moving over 300 miles per hour."

A False Assumption, IMHO, and many others who actually know avbout these things.

Article said: "The least expensive will accurately provide a range up to 400 meters with a margin of error of 3 meters. Laser rangefinders used by hunters can reach 1200 meters, with expense multiplying at each interval."

An aircraft at 8500 feet is a different class of laser. To monitor a stationary target at the range would require a device that costs over $7000. A moving target, like an aircraft, moves us over $10,000."
br> FALSE.... Try $95.00 Right here

Class 3a 5mw.

Article said: "I am not going to post the sites that have hardware that can track a plane over 3000 meters. Suffice it to say that there are many. Which brings us to the point of this article."

I will, as these are used for Astronomy all the time.

FALSE.... Try $95.00 Right here



My Original Comments Starting December 30th:
http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=120&topic_id=16336&mesg_id=16336&page=
Ok, I'll just post what I posted there: If it looks like I was replying to someone I was, as I was rebutting him, but I removed his comments. You can read his comments to me at the above link I posted.

Hmmmmmm,

Oh Please, I've used guns with lasers too, as have many here I bet, no big deal, and very common.

Well, even with your vast experience, you can still be wrong, and I say IMHO, it is just mischief with the perpetrators not realizing the seriousness or the consequences of their actions.

And I also think all these local Barney Fifes have no clue as to the Federal regulations that govern the airpsace or the power of the laser, and will just assume everyone is a terrorist with any laser regardless of the power.

Oh wait, looks like in one case I was right:
http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/articles/news2-laser.htm

"On Wednesday night, a pilot preparing to land the jet at Teterboro reported seeing three green laser beams about 11 miles from the airport."

11 Miles, who cares, It's out of the zone anyway, not that anyone ever reports that there is a zone.

Now we'll have all these whiners calling police every time some kid or adult shines a LEGAL LASER in the sky. That is almost as STUPID as the flight sim warnings after 9/11. Just DUMB Press to drum up ratings, IMHO.

Even the FAA says there have been NO ACCIDENTS even though there have been HUNDREDS of reported lasers. And the studies confirm the minimal annoyance this has been.

And if you had all this vast experience you speak of, you also might know there are regulations on this, as well as this:

1. Laser Free Zone (LFZ). Airspace in the immediate proximity of the airport, up to and including 2,000 feet AGL, extending 2 NM in all directions measured from the runway centerline. Additionally, the LFZ includes a 3 NM extension, 2,500 feet each side of the extended runway centerline, up to 2,000' AGL of each useable runway surface. The level of laser light is restricted to a level that should not cause any visual disruption.

2. Critical Flight Zone (CFZ). Airspace within a 10 NM radius of the airport reference point, up to and including 10,000 feet AGL, where a level of laser light is restricted to avoid flashblindness or afterimage effects.

3. Sensitive Flight Zone (SFZ).- Airspace outside the critical flight zones that authorities (e.g., FAA, local departments of aviation, military) have identified that must be protected from the potential effects of laser emissions.

4. Normal Flight Zones (NFZ).- Airspace not defined by the Laser Free, Critical, or Sensitive Flight Zones.

MULTIPLE RUNWAY LASER FREE ZONE

AIRSPACE FLIGHT ZONES

Graph Form


This Data is Very Recent, and is from August of 2003.

The FAA says:

"CONCLUSION. The FSEL of 5 mW/cm2 was validated for pilots illuminated by laser light while conducting terminal operations in the CFZ. Familiarization with the aircraft flown and instrument training appeared to improve the pilot’s ability to deal with laser exposure. Laser illumination at a higher level of exposure resulted in an unacceptable number of visual and operational problems. Laser effects may be especially serious for inexperienced or visually susceptible pilots."

Also from the FAA:

"FAA Order 7400.2 provides protection for aviators and passengers in designated zones of navigable airspace from both biological tissue damage and temporary visual impairment due to exposure from visible laser beams. The particular class of laser is not an issue as long as exposure levels are maintained at or below that assigned to the zone of airspace in question."

ALso: h. Flight Zone Exposure Distance. The maximum distance from the laser system beyond which the laser beams irradiance level does not exceed a specific level:

1. Laser Free Zone - 50nW/cm2;
2. Critical Zone - 5(mu)W/cm2;
3. Sensitive Zone - 100(mu)W/cm2.

Now Class IIIa lasers which are mostly the retail ones like the one I linked to above do not exceed 5.

So if he saw one 11 miles away like in this article, tough cookies...

Look, anyone that flies through one and is not in a zone, it is unfortunate, but this is just not a serious issue, IMHO, just an annoyance.

And I seriously doubt that many of these ATP's are familiar with the zones, or many people that even read these forums for that matter.

This is just overblown Hoopla.

From the news article:
http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/articles/news2-laser.htm

"At one moment he was in the backyard playing with his daughter," said Longarzo, "and 10 minutes later 12 police cars descended and he was whisked away by authorities and interrogated until 4 a.m."

What a Crock...... 12 Police cars for a laser pointed in the sky. ooohhh..... Guess I'll call the cops every time I go stargazing from now on, and of course I'll have to set up my Nighttime video camera top prove I did not highlight any aircraft as well. Can't let Barney Fife get involved, now can we....

This is a joke, IMHO.

And I say I think it was, especially if the person has the Class 3a Laser I linked to in the first post. $129, and you can point to the Moon, and it will appear as if it is right on it. And I've done it, with Stars and cluster as well. Now I can't say whether a Plane ever flew through one I was using, but if it did, oh well, they don't own the entire sky you know, and neither do I, but I can still use it.

And I say it was PRESENTS and KIDS in some cases, which is PROVEN in the article about the Guy Interrogated by Barney Fife and the 11 mile pilot.

That may be your opinion, but I feel you are overreacting and since there have been HUNDREDS, yes HUNDREDS of these reports over the years, your opinion is not based upon ANY FACTS whatsoever. It is just conjecture. I think you are trying to scare people with your post, IMHO.

Yeah targeting Stars. this is as dumb to me as banning guns. You as a Gun Owner should realize it is the person with the laser that does the damage, and there are rules and regs in place already.

So go arrest the ones that can be PROVEN to be Targeting, with a Laser within a PLOTTED OUT Zone according to Federal Regulations which are already in place.

Or do you feel ALL lasers should be banned to protect the entire Airspace of The United States, where only a Minuscule fraction is used for Aircraft Operations. It is a pretty big sky, you know.

Maybe what we need is simply a Education Program and better Publication of the Federal Regulations already in Place, since it is the Feds who are the only ones who can regulate Airspace.

And they should be prosecuted IF THEY BROKE A LAW. But if an Aircraft just flew through some guy pointing it in the sky, maybe they just experienced an AFTER-Image that made it seem like several seconds.

But I'm sure with all of your vast experience, you are aware of after images, yes? Same concept of any light entering directly in your eye.

Heck just stare at your light in your room for One Second.

Now Blink fast for a few seconds, and that is an after image.

I still say, IMHO, after HUNDREDS of these reports over the years, all of a sudden, you think they are all Targeting as if they are Terrorists.

Now how about we address something that has Brought down Aircraft instead of this scare tactic episode.

Hundreds of laser reports on aircraft = ZERO Accidents. Hundreds of Bird contact with AIrcraft How many dead, but we don't kill birds or ban bird ownership within 10 miles of an airport now do we.

But I bet some here would like to see a ban on these, and they are simply misinformed of the ACTUAL RISKS.

You want to regulate, regulate Commercial lasers Over 5, and leave the stargazers and observers alone.

And I also say an Aircraft at 8000 Feet at night going 300 Knots is very easy to track. You just listen for the sound and look for the lights on a clear night. Pretty simple stuff, IMHO. I see them quite often. The higher they are the easier to track.

I will also add that as a Pilot, If one was pointed at me, I would report it as well, but to be honest I am simply not worried about it. The advice is simply look away and concentrate on your instruments.

PS - Most of the data was taken from the faa.gov websites, and I have more info as well, such as actual test results done by the FAA in Simulators with a whole bunch of pilots, and done by the power of the laser.

Here is the actual FAA Study:
http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/aam-400A/abstracts/2004/FULL%20TEXT/0409.pdf

Which concludes:
"CONCLUSION:This study confirmed that the illumination of flight crewmembers with laser radiation ≥ 0.5 μW/cm2 is unacceptable in the LFZ. Provided the exposure limit established for the LFZ (i.e., 50 nW/cm2) is not exceeded, a sufficient margin of safety appears to exist for protecting pilots from accidental laser exposure during final approach."

"The exposure limit established for the LFZ (i.e., 50 nW/cm2) precludes even 3a laser pointers in this zone. Provided the LFZ exposure limit is not exceeded, a sufficient margin of safety appears to exist for protecting pilots from accidental laser exposure during final approach; however, further research may be indicated to confirm this assumption."

Again, the LFZ is defined above.

Note the words SUFFICIENT MARGIN OF SAFETY.

So if they have a 3a Laser in the LFZ Zone, fine take it, if not leave them alone, IMHO.

Note the 10,000 Feet reference with a 5.

From:
http://www.meridiantelescopes.com/detlaser.htm

"NEW for 2004 5mW Green Laser Pointer

This laser projects a green laser beam/dot up to an incredible 10,000 feet away with a 5 mW green laser (532 nm wavelength) that is 30 times brighter than a red laser. This is because human eyes are most sensitive to green light. This laser has a true 5 mW output power, the maximum allowable by the FDA. For astronomers, you can see the laser beam in the dark and point out constellations or to collimate your telescope. You can even see the green dot outdoors in the daytime. It uses glass lenses and Sony laser diode."

So I say, confiscate all the ones above 5 if you want unless they have a legal purpose to have one, but please stop making outrageous comments like the ones you made above without having all the facts.

Do I think Commercial Grade >5 Lasers should be regulated? Sure why not.

But some in the news act as if this is something that recently started happening.

It's been going on for YEARS, and well before 9/11. Read the studies, like I did.

Hundreds and Hundreds of reports.

But Now, the press and a bunch of Barney Fifes want to retain the entire sky for their aircraft, as if the sky is only of benefit to them.

That is just wrong, IMHO.

This is just a stupid moronic attempt to gain ratings by the press, and had it not been reported, you would not have all these copycats doing it with their <5 lasers as is happening now.

I mean, please... They interrogate some poor guy until 5 am for shining a legal laser in the sky in his backyard. Then some IDIOT Pilot says he saw a Laser 11 miles away form the airport. 11 Miles. Talk about dumb. Maybe these pilots should on their next checkride should be tested on the regs in place now, to keep themselves from making STUPID Comments like that one did.

And of course, the IGNORANT Population continues to believe what people like YOU and the press keep saying on this. That is why I rebutted you with FACTS and EVIDENCE.

Talk about OVERKILL, overreaching authority, Ignorance, and just plain stupidity by these authorities.

As for Pilots being concerned, well, I guess the study should be mailed to each of them so they can ease their concerns, as well as a copy of the regs.

My guess is these pilots don't have any clue either, and are listening to the stupid press, and buying Rumors as facts like some do here.

As for the FAA, they did take action, they did do studies, they did receive input from Pilots, and they did enact the Laser Zones.

Again, not one single accident, not one due to a laser.

How about the FBI Instead of the FAA, would they be a credible source, or is this all a Terrorist cover Up Story.

Here You Go:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=710&e=1&u=/usatoday/20050103/pl_usatoday/fbinoterrorlinkinlasersaimedataircraft

"A string of incidents around the country involving laser beams aimed at aircraft aren't linked to terrorism and are more likely the work of mischief makers, the FBI said Sunday.

The FBI attributed eight incidents in the past 10 days to pranks or accidental acts that tagged aircraft in Ohio, Texas, Oregon and New Jersey. Pilots reported that powerful laser beams apparently had been aimed at them during takeoffs and landings."

Looks like I was right all along.

And from here:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/03/fbi_laser_terror/

"Numerous people have been questioned by the FBI about this laser beam activity, but no one has been charged with a crime."

Maybe because THEY COMMITTED NO CRIME IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I advise folks here that the next time you see a Laser pointing in the sky, don't assume it's some whacky terrorist, as it is probably just an astronomer, or some kid or adult screwing around with a <5mw Laser.

Again, I feel what needs to be stressed is the Education of the Rules and Regs for the Public, and the Pilots, as all we will have is the Ignorant Public and Ignorant Pilots reporting every time they even see a laser going up in the sky.

Another debunked Theory....

And with regards to your faith in the FAA, what would be their motive for doing a study, establishing these regulations and federal rules, and not going for an all-out ban on ALL Lasers.

Do you believe the FAA is in collusion with the hand held laser industry? Pretty Silly, huh?

Maybe if the FAA held the opposite position of what I listed, you may have a point, but there is no motive for the FAA unless someone assumes they were in collusion to protect the laser industry. Two totally different industries, when you exclude the Military Applications.

Regards,
Joe
8 posted on 01/03/2005 4:23:19 PM PST by Sonar5 (60+ Million have Spoken Clearly - "We Want Our Country Back")
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To: Sonar5

My question is, why would they need a laser to measure airplain altitudes around airports? Aren't those already published in airport landing instructions and charts?

I am certainly not a pilot, nor am I certain of this, but it just does not make sense to me to have to use lasers to measure altitudes.


9 posted on 01/03/2005 5:02:42 PM PST by arjay (If the NYT is against it, it must be good for America.)
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To: Hoplite

No sir, won't bring no triggernometry into this.


10 posted on 01/03/2005 5:15:33 PM PST by sionnsar († trad-anglican.faithweb.com † || Iran Azadi || Gregoirovich, NYET!! www.revotewa.com)
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To: arjay

Hi arjay,

I think a better question is why would they even need to know the altitude? (IMHO, they wouldn't)

As a Pilot, or even those who are not it is very easy to download approaches which list altitudes an aircraft should be at when they are near an airport.

To get a better grasp, here is the ILS GPS Approach for my airport French Valley in Temecula, Ca.

http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0413/06941G18.PDF

Look at the bottom, and you will see distances and altitudes for the approach.

This just goes to show the IGNORANCE some will show on threads like these.

Anyone can figure out a distance of an approach and altitude by doing a simple search on the net.

airnav gives approaches for almost every airport. All one has to know is the wind direction. (also freely available) an d then the approach in use at the time.

It is stupid to think people are ranging to figure out what altitude an aircraft is at.

Altitude deviations are serious with the FAA, and 50 feet is about the limit.

SO to answer your question, IMHO, they don't need nor are trying to figure it out.

The truth is these types of scare tactics are ripe for people to comment who have no clue.

I just happen to be a Pilot and a hobbyist astronomer who owns a class 3a laser.

Regards,
Joe


11 posted on 01/03/2005 5:26:27 PM PST by Sonar5 (60+ Million have Spoken Clearly - "We Want Our Country Back")
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To: Sonar5

Oh Yeah it's a 10 mile approach from TIQMU to the runway, 4300 Feet down to the runway.


12 posted on 01/03/2005 5:29:21 PM PST by Sonar5 (60+ Million have Spoken Clearly - "We Want Our Country Back")
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