Posted on 12/17/2004 8:33:59 AM PST by jveritas
In the last few weeks so many threads have been posted on Free Republic regarding the illegal immigration issue. Many of the posters on these threads are not there to discuss the illegal immigration issue in a constructive and logical way, but they have been savagely bashing President Bush and spewing their despise toward him, as bad if not even worse than the most rabid left wing liberals.
The illegal immigration issue is an important discussion forum that we need to debate on FR, but the style and the content of the debate as appeared in many posts have been filled with a despicable hatred toward President Bush.
Many who disagree with President Bush illegal immigration issue are “True Conservatives” and “Faithful Republicans”, but they do it in a constructive criticism rather than hateful speeches. On the other hand, the perpetrators of these hateful posts are the Buchananites and the 3rd party voters.
Illegal immigration is a vital issue that our nation needs to deal with. President Bush has suggested the “Guest Worker Program” which is in some ways a “practical” and “effective” solution to address some but not all of the problems of the 10-15 millions illegal immigrants in the US. However the President still does not address in a clear way what are the effective measures that we need to take to strengthen the control of the Southern borders, and prevent new waves of illegal immigrants coming to the country everyday through the Mexican borders. Also what must be urgently addressed is the abuse perpetuated by many illegal immigrants of states and federal welfare programs. The Guest Worker Program must be very clear that immigrants who are employed under this program are not entitled to welfare help, period.
Now the extreme fringe on FR, want to use the most radical and the dumbest ways to solve the illegal immigration issue. The wackiest of their wacky ideas, is to deport all the illegal immigrants. What a great solution! What this fringe do not take comprehend is that deporting 10 to 15 millions illegal immigrants, require that the states and the federal law enforcement agencies must hire tens of thousand of people and must spend tens if not hundred of billions of dollars to do it, and it will not work. Make no doubt about it that the media will be abusing these scenes of deportation thousand folds than anything they have used and abused in the past. The vast majority of the Americans will not accept days after days of images and videos of the millions of illegal immigrants being put in buses and deported. The courts will be tied up in ten of thousands of cases regarding deporting illegal immigrants and this will cost ten of billions of dollars as well. Eventually, these extreme radical and illogical measures will create a tremendous backlash that will destroy any honest effort to fix the illegal immigration problems.
Another delusional idea to resolve the illegal immigration issue is to heavily fine the businesses who hire illegal immigrants and by doing so these immigrants will return back home because no one is hiring them. WOW! Another genius solution! This idea is as moronic as the deporting the millions of illegal immigrants because it requires tens of thousands of new law enforcement agents and tens of billions of dollars, plus it will be played very badly in the arena of public opinion. Furthermore a very strong sector of the business community will fight it to death and they will not let it happen, period.
In conclusion there is only one logical and practical solution to resolve the illegal immigration problem. Legalize the illegal immigrants via a guest worker program, and at the same type stop new and future waves of illegal immigrants by strongly controlling and tightening the Southern borders.
Enough with the hate Bush threads disguised under the illegal immigration issue. Let us discuss this important issue in an honest, smart, logical and constructive way and let us stop the irrational hateful posts.
Just stop it.
LOL! There far more there than that.
You claim he has said very little while also claiming to know his mind.
I wish folks would see the wisdom of the idea, but unfortunately, there is a very strong lobby against doing anything combined with some honest conservatives.
There is no wisdom to be found in rewarding illegal aliens.
There is no wisdom to be found in penalizing the law abiding applicants.
There is no wisdom to be found in repeating the errors of the past.
There is no wisdom to be found in provoking this fight against the will of so many in the GOP
From what I have observed in the past few years here in Cochise County, existing enforcement policies are consciously designed to fail. It has to be conscious as there are too many ib government with enough brains and experience to point them out immediately.
One: the current catch and release policy exacts no credible penalty for crossing our border illegally. All they get is a quick voluntary deportation so they can try again a few hours later. Never mind that the second crossing is a felony, not a misdemeanor or administrative infraction.
Two: there is almost no logistical infrastructure supporting the Border Patrol. Let's say they catch a normal group of about thirty at 9 pm; that will take at least four units off line for for about three hours minimum. The coyotes know this, watch for it to happen and push much larger groups through that gap in coverage. I can't believe the Border Patrol's leadership never heard of the simple concepts of buses or temporary holding areas.
Three: detention space has been known to be wholly inadequate for years, even for the most dangerous aliens caught. Has anything been done about it? No. My sheriff sees 40% of his budget disappear every year detaining the more criminal aliens for the Feds. He is repaid approximately 11% of his costs.
The new and improved "Add a Layer of Bureaucracy to the Intel Community" bill adds 10,000 Border Patrol agents and 2,000 ICE agents over the next five years -- and doesn't provide one red cent to fund it. My gues is that they'll call it a success as they replace the agents who quit in disgust.
It also calls for another 4,000 detention spaces (nice round, impressive sounding number -- again unfunded) with no mention of the fact that 4,000 spaces would only handle 1% of the 400,000 deportees they're already trying to catch.
Our leaders are greatly enamored with using big round numbers for political and public relations effect. Remember all the bilge about spending $10 million on the the great Arizona Border Control Initiative? TEN MILLION SMACKERS! NOW THEY'RE SERIOUS!!! Until you put it in perspective and remember that sum will only buy you a non-flyable fraction of a single 30 year old F-16 fighter plane.
Once again, a hat full of hot air and empty promises.
And as they move up, legally, another tidal wave of illegals will move in to take the entry level sub-minumum wage "under the table" jobs. As they do after each "amnistia" (which is the Mexican translation of "guest worker."
I want to repeat that the weak part of the “Guest Worker Program” is not having a plan to strengthen the Southern borders to prevent the new wave of illegal immigrants.
Lucy, Charlie Brown is not going to try to kick that ball you're holding again.
Fool us once, shame on Lucy. Fool us twice, shame on Charlie Brown.
Been there, done that, got 12-15 million new illegal aliens (all waiting for the next "amnistia" by any name.)
We don't need to deport millions of illegal aliens, only a few thousand.
What we do need to do is cut the illegals off from The Great American Mammary Gland, which we can certainly do.
No driver's licenses. No free public schools. No free medical care except in bona fide emergencies, followed by swift deportation. No welfare. No food stamps. Etc etc etc
Cut them off from the Great American Teat, and they will deport themselves.
This is not the way it will work when you want to deport 15 million people. The logistic to do this will be beyond anything that can be put on paper and not to mention the impossibility of doing it.
Calculate how many cops you need to round up all the people in Los Angeles and Chicago combined. This will be the number of cops to arrest 15 millions illegal immigrants.
I hope now that it will become very clear in your mind.
Are you sure your on the right board, would you like me to redirect you to Dem Underground?
143: Great post. "Designed to fail" is right.
A BPman called into the Roger Hedgecock Show (KOGO 600) in San Diego. They had aquired a few tracking dogs. German Shepherds, I believe, trained to find folks hiding in rough country, like pointers.
It was VERY successful. The dogs would alert on "empty" ravines, and the BP would find large groups hiding in the scrub, and detain them.
It lasted only a few days. The lawyers for the oppressed migrants (sic) boo-hooed that the dogs were "terrorizing" the illegal aliens, who were hiding in the thickets.
The dogs were taken off of that duty, and given to customs to sniff cargo, for which the dogs were not trained.
The real reason, the BPman thought, was that the tracking dogs WORKED. They were EFFECTIVE. So they were gotten rid of, pronto, so the "designed to fail" policy could continue to fail to catch illegals, as designed.
The "public" I know is not enamored. Their PR is beyond recall. They're dismissed! There was a woman registering people to vote outside of a local store the other day. She had a second sign clarifying "ILLEGALS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO VOTE."
Here we go again.
How does transferring production offshore create markets?
Please provide links documenting how India and China are sopping up U.S. consumer goods. Either imported from the U.S. or made by U.S.-wholly-owned factories in country.
Real free trade with developed nations is good. Our guys sell products there by the ton and their guys sell product here. Good. We even move production there and sell the products there. Good.
They move their production here, hire us, and sell their products here. Double good. That is free trade Good.
"Free trade" is transferring technology, wealth, and jobs to India and China and then importing the goods and services for sale here in the U.S. It ain't free trade, it's "free trade." FTINO, free trade in name only.
The math solid, and yes it's a projection.
The math that was weak was yours when you projected three different agents for every apprehension.
This is not the way it will work when you want to deport 15 million people.
Did I say I wanted to deport 15 million?
We should implement a series of mesures, including some deportation, that will encourage illegal aliens to leave on their own.
I hope now that it will become very clear in your mind.
I've clarified your misunderstanding.
Now explain how rewarding illegal behavior, as you're advocating, doesn't encourage it.
No keep accusing me of being a liberal and hating law enforcement is way overboard. Do you understand now?
1. Deterrence (no freebies)
2. Apprehension
3. Removal (deporation)- buh-bye...don't come back now, ya hear?
I think all it would take is one announcement on 1 January 2005:
This is a 90 day warning. Leave before April Fools Day and you can take all your assets with you. After that date, you get deported with the clothes you're wearing. Everything else will be forfeit.
Employers, shed your illegals by that date or you're wearing orange and working for an unpleasant geneticist in Arizona. His preferred motivational tool is a Bull Buster cattle prod.
I voted for Bush twice and am totally disgusted with his immigration philosophy and policies. Does that make me a "delusional Buchananite" too?
What are you then? And it certainly isnt a Conservative, so are you a Libertarian? Are you a Bush-bot?
There are absolutely NO details at all! The proposal is a guide. A guide only.
The fine proposal was brought up in a committee hearing. I liked it, because it makes it clear that a law was violated.
My idea was to fine them, some 5,000 dollars and charge them formally with illegal entry. Suspend the jail sentence in lieu of probation for the duration of the permit or longer, whatever flies in Congress.
This should satisfy all the legal stuff, and provide funding for the effort we are making.
Keeping in mind that anyone who is found to be a criminal in Mexico,or has violated other laws in the U.S. will simply be sent back on the spot.
Now, I know that not all illegals are going to start running to the nearest point to get a permit, but eventually they will be forced to on their own volition because without one, they will be most likely unemployed. (assuming we gain control of the underground economy, and that is a huge undertaking. There are hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of illegal business operations at the present time. I know of at least 100 in my little area of 15,000 residents, perhaps more. Non of them have fed id's. None of them pay into social security or pay taxes to state or fed. Yet they have anywhere from six to twelve employees. (cash)
This is where your illegals can be found. They are everywhere.
Failure to control this segment of society will result in failure of any and all immigration plans, including enforcement of existing laws.
This can be controlled though stronger currency controls and other methods. This will raise hell with the drug trade as well.
Keep in mind, that this is a work in progress that has been essentially halted by Congressional inaction due to constituency complaints. most of which are coming from illegal advocacy groups, immigrant haters and libertines who are worried the Fed will see what they are really up to.
All have joined forces to fight the so called Bush proposal for their own gratuitous reasons.
So, as a result, I do not know what we will end up with, but it will be done incrementally and mostly under the table.
That is not a good thing. I think it needs to be hashed out so that a majority supports it. Whatever it takes to get there is fine, but logic and reason need to rule. Not simplistic stuff calling for deportations and detentions that cannot be done and militarized borders.
The reason none of these things will occur are numerous, obvious and very compelling.
I would get into them all, but I am beat and heading for bed.
What are the measures that you want to take to have the 15 million -few thousands illegal immigrant leave on their own. Let me guess cut there welfare. Fine with me and by doing so how many millions would leave on their own, one million, two millions, three millions... give a number. Not all illegal immigrants are living on welfare, not a majority, but rather a minority.
Much tighter borders control will drastically reduce the new waves of illegal immigrants. For the illegal immigrant who are here, you have to deal with them through the Guest worker program and other similar measures.
I am a Conservative Republican. Who are you?
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