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CARBON DATING UNDERCUTS EVOLUTION'S LONG AGES
ICR ^ | October, 2003 | John Baumgardner

Posted on 09/25/2003 2:46:02 PM PDT by HalfFull

Evolutionists generally feel secure even in the face of compelling creationist arguments today because of their utter confidence in the geological time scale. Even if they cannot provide a naturalistic mechanism, they appeal to the "fact of evolution," by which they mean an interpretation of earth history with a succession of different types of plants and animals in a drama spanning hundreds of millions of years.

The Bible, by contrast, paints a radically different picture of our planet's history. In particular, it describes a time when God catastrophically destroyed the earth and essentially all its life. The only consistent way to interpret the geological record in light of this event is to understand that fossil-bearing rocks are the result of a massive global Flood that occurred only a few thousand years ago and lasted but a year. This Biblical interpretation of the rock record implies that the animals and plants preserved as fossils were all contemporaries. This means trilobites, dinosaurs, and mammals all dwelled on the planet simultaneously, and they perished together in this world-destroying cataclysm.

Although creationists have long pointed out the rock formations themselves testify unmistakably to water catastrophism on a global scale, evolutionists generally have ignored this testimony. This is partly due to the legacy of the doctrine of uniformitarianism passed down from one generation of geologists to the next since the time of Charles Lyell in the early nineteenth century. Uniformitarianism assumes that the vast amount of geological change recorded in the rocks is the product of slow and uniform processes operating over an immense span of time, as opposed to a global cataclysm of the type described in the Bible and other ancient texts.

With the discovery of radioactivity about a hundred years ago, evolutionists deeply committed to the uniformitarian outlook believed they finally had proof of the immense antiquity of the earth. In particular, they discovered the very slow nuclear decay rates of elements like Uranium while observing considerable amounts of the daughter products from such decay. They interpreted these discoveries as vindicating both uniformitarianism and evolution, which led to the domination of these beliefs in academic circles around the world throughout the twentieth century.

However, modern technology has produced a major fly in that uniformitarian ointment. A key technical advance, which occurred about 25 years ago, involved the ability to measure the ratio of 14C atoms to 12C atoms with extreme precision in very small samples of carbon, using an ion beam accelerator and a mass spectrometer. Prior to the advent of this accelerator mass spectrometer (AMS) method, the 14C/12C ratio was measured by counting the number of 14C decays. This earlier method was subject to considerable "noise" from cosmic rays.

The AMS method improved the sensitivity of the raw measurement of the 14C/12C ratio from approximately 1% of the modern value to about 0.001%, extending the theoretical range of sensitivity from about 40,000 years to about 90,000 years. The expectation was that this improvement in precision would make it possible to use this technique to date dramatically older fossil material.1 The big surprise, however, was that no fossil material could be found anywhere that had as little as 0.001% of the modern value!2 Since most of the scientists involved assumed the standard geological time scale was correct, the obvious explanation for the 14C they were detecting in their samples was contamination from some source of modern carbon with its high level of 14C. Therefore they mounted a major campaign to discover and eliminate the sources of such contamination. Although they identified and corrected a few relatively minor sources of 14C contamination, there still remained a significant level of 14C—typically about 100 times the ultimate sensitivity of the instrument—in samples that should have been utterly "14C-dead," including many from the deeper levels of the fossil-bearing part of the geological record.2

Let us consider what the AMS measurements imply from a quantitative standpoint. The ratio of 14C atoms to 12C atoms decreases by a factor of 2 every 5730 years. After 20 half-lives or 114,700 years (assuming hypothetically that earth history goes back that far), the 14C/12C ratio is decreased by a factor of 220, or about 1,000,000. After 1.5 million years, the ratio is diminished by a factor of 21500000/5730, or about 1079. This means that if one started with an amount of pure 14C equal to the mass of the entire observable universe, after 1.5 million years there should not be a single atom of 14C remaining! Routinely finding 14C/12C ratios on the order of 0.1-0.5% of the modern value—a hundred times or more above the AMS detection threshold—in samples supposedly tens to hundreds of millions of years old is therefore a huge anomaly for the uniformitarian framework.

This earnest effort to understand this "contamination problem" therefore generated scores of peer-reviewed papers in the standard radiocarbon literature during the last 20 years.2 Most of these papers acknowledge that most of the 14C in the samples studied appear to be intrinsic to the samples themselves, and they usually offer no explanation for its origin. The reality of significant levels of 14C in a wide variety of fossil sources from throughout the geological record has thus been established in the secular scientific literature by scientists who assume the standard geological time scale is valid and have no special desire for this result!

In view of the profound significance of these AMS 14C measurements, the ICR Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth (RATE) team has undertaken its own AMS 14C analyses of such fossil material.2 The first set of samples consisted of ten coals obtained from the U. S. Department of Energy Coal Sample Bank maintained at the Pennsylvania State University. The ten samples include three coals from the Eocene part of the geological record, three from the Cretaceous, and four from the Pennsylvanian. These samples were analyzed by one of the foremost AMS laboratories in the world. Figure 1 below shows in histogram form the results of these analyses.

These values fall squarely within the range already established in the peer-reviewed radiocarbon literature. When we average our results over each geological interval, we obtain remarkably similar values of 0.26 percent modern carbon (pmc) for Eocene, 0.21 pmc for Cretaceous, and 0.27 pmc for Pennsylvanian. Although the number of samples is small, we observe little difference in 14C level as a function of position in the geological record. This is consistent with the young-earth view that the entire macrofossil record up to the upper Cenozoic is the product of the Genesis Flood and therefore such fossils should share a common 14C age.


Percent Modern Carbon

Applying the uniformitarian approach of extrapolating 14C decay into the indefinite past translates the measured 14C/12C ratios into ages that are on the order of 50,000 years (2-50000/5730 = 0.0024 = 0.24 pmc). However, uniformitarian assumptions are inappropriate when one considers that the Genesis Flood removed vast amounts of living biomass from exchange with the atmosphere—organic material that now forms the earth's vast coal, oil, and oil shale deposits. A conservative estimate for the pre-Flood biomass is 100 times that of today. If one takes as a rough estimate for the total 14C in the biosphere before the cataclysm as 40% of what exists today and assumes a relatively uniform 14C level throughout the pre-Flood atmosphere and biomass, then we might expect a 14C/12C ratio of about 0.4% of today's value in the plants and animals at the onset of the Flood. With this more realistic pre-Flood 14C/12C ratio, we find that a value of 0.24 pmc corresponds to an age of only 4200 years (0.004 x 2-4200/5730 = 0.0024 = 0.24 pmc). Even though these estimates are rough, they illustrate the crucial importance of accounting for effects of the Flood cataclysm when translating a 14C/12C ratio into an actual age.

Percent Modern Carbon

Some readers at this point may be asking, how does one then account for the tens of millions and hundreds of millions of years that other radioisotope methods yield for the fossil record? Most of the other RATE projects address this important issue. Equally as persuasive as the 14C data is evidence from RATE measurements of the diffusion rate of Helium in zircon crystals that demonstrates the rate of nuclear decay of Uranium into Lead and Helium has been dramatically higher in the past and the uniformitarian assumption of a constant rate of decay is wrong.3 Another RATE project documents the existence of abundant Polonium radiohalos in granitic rocks that crystallized during the Flood and further demonstrates that the uniformitarian assumption of constant decay rates is incorrect.4 Another RATE project provides clues for why the 14C decay rate apparently was minimally affected during episodes of rapid decay of isotopes with long half-lives.5

The bottom line of this research is that the case is now extremely compelling that the fossil record was produced just a few thousand years ago by the global Flood cataclysm. The evidence that reveals that macroevolution as an explanation for the origin of life on earth can therefore no longer be rationally defended.


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To: Honcho Bongs
There are at least 3 Baumgartners working for Los Alamos. J Baumgartner, JR Baumgartner, and Michael J. Baumgartner. Are you sure it isn't another Baumgartner?
321 posted on 09/25/2003 8:55:28 PM PDT by DittoJed2 (Liberty must at all hazards be supported. We have a right to it,derived from our Maker- John Adams)
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To: HalfFull
The author of this piece is the same John Baumgardner who co-authored an article in Science five years ago, modelling the earth over the last 150 million years?

What kind of hypocrite is this guy?

322 posted on 09/25/2003 8:55:38 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: DittoJed2
Gee, in 60 seconds you come up with three Baumgardners. What's your angle?
323 posted on 09/25/2003 8:56:30 PM PDT by Honcho Bongs
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To: DittoJed2
Besides, the guys name is BAUMGARDNER, not Baumgartner
324 posted on 09/25/2003 8:57:28 PM PDT by Honcho Bongs
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To: Honcho Bongs
It's the same bozo. To get paid by the gummint, he write articles modelling the earth's mantle over umpteeen million years. But then he writes these tinfoil articles for creationists, claiming it isn't more than 6000 years old. Well, if both sides are paying you, where's the harm?
325 posted on 09/25/2003 9:02:47 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: AndrewC
In any case, no one seems to have a credible explanation for the excess carbon-14. It is a puzzler. Cosmic rays can't do it. They have already been eliminated because of the atmosphere.

Funny how the evolutionists turn against science when it proves their assumptions wrong. They have been touting carbon dating and other dating forms as proof for their theories. Now that strong proof against it comes out they call the messenger names. Sorta reminds me of the tactics of a certain exinhabitant of the White House.

Yes, the question that cannot be answered is why after supposedly a million, ten million years, just about all the C14 is not gone?

326 posted on 09/25/2003 9:06:03 PM PDT by gore3000 (Knowledge is the antidote to evolution.)
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To: Honcho Bongs
There are two J Baumgardners in their system. JR Baumgardner and J Baumgardner. Listed as separate authors. How can you be sure it is the same one?
327 posted on 09/25/2003 9:06:39 PM PDT by DittoJed2 (Liberty must at all hazards be supported. We have a right to it,derived from our Maker- John Adams)
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To: DittoJed2
Okay, you win. The Creationist Baumgardner just sweeps up at Los Alamos. Fitting, don't you think?
328 posted on 09/25/2003 9:08:59 PM PDT by Honcho Bongs
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To: Honcho Bongs
I never said that. I've just seen this posted and Baumgardner attacked over it- but there are possibly at least two Baumgardners who work for Los Alamos. May not be the same guy. I asked RWP to email him and find out why he would have supported something that says 150 million years. Evidentally, he is satisfied with ad hominem attacks on the guy's character. I'll email him myself and see if its the same guy. If I get an answer, I'll let you all know.
329 posted on 09/25/2003 9:11:59 PM PDT by DittoJed2 (Liberty must at all hazards be supported. We have a right to it,derived from our Maker- John Adams)
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To: ForOurFuture
I know some people who believe that God created the world, and than the evolutionary process began following it or that God allowed the evolutionary process to occur in order for His commands to be met.
330 posted on 09/25/2003 9:13:10 PM PDT by yonif ("If I Forget Thee, O Jerusalem, Let My Right Hand Wither" - Psalms 137:5)
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To: Sentis
You are looking at some carbon from another source not the original material it is that simple.

In other words, if it agrees with evolution, it is a true finding, if it disagrees with evolution is is pollution. Sounds like heads you win, tails I lose, the usual nonsense put out by evolutionists. Excuseses, excuses and more excuses when scientific findings do not agree with evolutionist assumptions.

331 posted on 09/25/2003 9:14:52 PM PDT by gore3000 (Knowledge is the antidote to evolution.)
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To: Honcho Bongs; DittoJed2
Sounds like a schizo.

Why don't you ask him, instead of belittling him? Oh, I know, it is too hard to write a simple e-mail.

332 posted on 09/25/2003 9:19:47 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
I've emailed Mr. Baumgardner. Hopefully he will send a clarification.
333 posted on 09/25/2003 9:24:06 PM PDT by DittoJed2 (Liberty must at all hazards be supported. We have a right to it,derived from our Maker- John Adams)
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To: narby; ForOurFuture; jakkknife
I guess he can't prove God exists. He's avoiding the question.

The life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Look here and then try reading this book.

The Testimony of the Evangelists:
The Gospels Examined by the Rules of Evidence
by Simon Greenleaf

334 posted on 09/25/2003 9:30:29 PM PDT by bondserv
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To: Alter Kaker
Do not trifle with me, boy.

Trifle science ... evolution !

335 posted on 09/26/2003 12:33:33 AM PDT by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: gore3000
qoute from the gore 3000 "In other words, if it agrees with evolution, it is a true finding, if it disagrees with evolution is is pollution. Sounds like heads you win, tails I lose, the usual nonsense put out by evolutionists. Excuseses, excuses and more excuses when scientific findings do not agree with evolutionist assumptions "

As I said only a fool Carbon dates a Rock. Do you even know how Carbon dating works? I guess you people don't how utterly pathetic.
336 posted on 09/26/2003 2:46:49 AM PDT by Sentis
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P L A C E M A R K E R
337 posted on 09/26/2003 3:59:17 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (The "Agreement of the Willing" is posted at the end of my personal profile page.)
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To: Right Wing Professor
The author of this piece is the same John Baumgardner who co-authored an article in Science five years ago, modelling the earth over the last 150 million years? What kind of hypocrite is this guy?

Typical of you, Mr. prof, that you begin right off the bat with an attack on a researcher's character. Pardon me if I question an attack from you because you don't like the subject matter.

That said, I wouldn't mind looking into your accusation...care to post the specific article please? That way we can all check it out, make sure it was really written by the same person, etc. The numberous articles I have read from this guy clearly show his consistant stand.

338 posted on 09/26/2003 4:15:20 AM PDT by HalfFull
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To: Sentis
As I said only a fool Carbon dates a Rock. Do you even know how Carbon dating works? I guess you people don't how utterly pathetic.

I know you would rather insult others, but perhaps you may want to know that many fossils exist that are not "rock" .

Read, and learn....

Fossil definitions:

TYPES OF FOSSILS

Paleontologist basically recognize two types of fossils:

1. Body Fossils - the actual body or body parts of an organism, whether altered or not.

2. Trace Fossils - any evidence of past life that is not a body fossil; examples: tracks, trails, burrows borings, impressions, molds, casts, steinkerns.

MODES OF PRESERVATION

An important observation to be made about any fossil is the method of preservation. This indicates what happened to the fossil subsequent to its burial, and the kind of environment in which it was originally buried. Not every organism becomes fossilized. Important prerequisites for fossilization are quick burial, and the presence of some hard parts. If the animal is not quickly buried; bacteria, other animals or erosional processes can destroy it. Most fossils have some hard parts. However, organisms sometimes die in anaerobic environments and soft parts can be preserved. But preservation of soft parts is unusual. Below are the different types of preservation.

I. BODY FOSSILS

A. Unaltered Remains--This category includes those fossils which have undergone little or not change in structure and composition. As a general rule (but by no means absolute), an organism which lived fairly recently has a greater probability of being unaltered than a more ancient one.

Original Skeletal Material--Organisms which have hard parts are preserved as the original material. This includes many invertebrate shells composed of calcium carbonate, silica, chitin, or vertebrate bones of calcium phosphate.

Encrustations--In many caves, ground water seeps and drips constantly; the high concentration of dissolved minerals in such water is left behind when the water drips, and forms a thin crust on the interior surface of the cave and whatever lies in it. This will coat and preserve any organism which dies here.

Tar Impregnation--Tar pits are excellent sites for fossilization. The famous Rancho La Brea tar pits in southern California have yielded particularly rich collections of vertebrate bones, wood, etc. Smaller pits have yielded perfectly preserved insects and even insect larvae.

Amber Entombment--Certain cone-bearing trees, such as spruce, pine and fir, contain a sticky resinous "pitch" which comes from wounds in the tree. Small insects and other minute organism may become trapped in this resin, which after burial may harden into amber. Certain parts of the Baltic Sea coast and some of the islands in the West Indies are well known for occurrences of insects preserved in amber.

Refrigeration--During the Pleistocene glaciation, when ice sheets cover much of the Northern Hemisphere, some animals (mammoths, for example) fell into crevasses in frozen terrain or became trapped in permanently frozen soil. Some of these animals have been discovered perfectly preserved.

Mummification--In very arid regions, animals may dry out quickly and be preserved, soft parts and all. Anyone who has found a dried-out fish behind the tank has seen this type of preservation.

B. Altered Remains--As sediments become compressed by the weight of overlying sediments, they slowly undergo the process of lithification. Common cementing materials in the groundwater are carbonate, silica, and iron oxides. Often the groundwater and their minerals may affect the fossilization process.

Permineralization -- Many bones, shells, and plant stems have porous internal structures. These pores may become filled with mineral deposits. In the process of permineralization, the actual chemical composition of the original hard parts of the organism may not change.

Dissolution/Replacement -- Groundwater (especially acidic groundwater) may act to dissolve a hard structure in an organism trapped in sediments and may, simultaneously deposit a mineral in its place--molecule by molecule. Replication of tree trunks, including their internal microscopic cellular structure, by silica in the process of forming PETRIFIED WOOD is a classic example of this type of fossilization.

Recrystallization – conversion, essentially in the solid state, of the mineralogy of the fossil usually to a new mineral or to coarser crystals of the original mineral.

Carbonization -- When organisms become mashed into the sediment, their volatile (liquid or gaseous) components may be forced out, leaving only a film of carbon. If additional organic matter remains when, for example, plants are entombed, the result is coal.

II. TRACE FOSSILS

Mold--Any reproduction of the anatomical features of the internal or external surface of an organism. Animal tracks preserved in rocks may be termed external molds. Internal molds, particularly of shells, are sometimes called Steinkerns. An impression is actually and external mold.

Cast--This is, in general, a duplication of the original. Casts are formed when original parts are dissolved away and the resulting space becomes filled either with sediment or mineral matter.

Compression--In general, this refers to the deformation of a structure as a result of pressure from overlying sediments. This term has been used also for casts and/or molds of leaves.

Borings and Burrows--Certain worms and clams and many other invertebrates burrow into rocks, wood, shells, and all types of sediment. These burrows are frequently preserved, especially in fine- grained rocks.

Coprolites--Fossil excrement can be sometimes give definitive knowledge about the diet of the animal concerned.

Gastroliths--These are smooth, polished stones that are often found in the abdominal cavities of the skeletons of dinosaurs. They are thought to have helped those huge animals grind up vegetable matter in their stomachs.

Gnawings--Rodents and other animals chew on bones for the calcium content and did so in the past. Gnawed bones are frequently preserved as fossils

339 posted on 09/26/2003 4:36:00 AM PDT by HalfFull
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To: trapped_in_LA
And the transitional forms are easily obsevable in the fossil record ...

Not only have transitionals been observed, but predicted in advance, yes.

... and over thrusts where thousands of square miles of "older" rock layers have slid over "younger" rock layers is easily explained.

I'm going to guess here--don't know the specific case you are trying to describe--that if any overthrust faultings are thousands of square miles in extent, the overlap area is very long and skinny. In any event, Noahic Flood geology does a lousy job of describing the sort of sequenced geological features described on this page.

340 posted on 09/26/2003 5:45:27 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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