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Gross ignorance that Violence begets violence--Re: Free Republic's "Paul Hill Execution" Threads
Free Republic ^ | 9/4/03 | Dr. Brian Kopp, Vice President, Catholic Family Assoc. of America

Posted on 09/04/2003 8:51:55 AM PDT by Polycarp

My anger over the pathological nature of "legal" baby killing and the individuals on these threads who see Hill's crime as somehow "worse" than that of the baby killers has led me to say things on these threads that I don't really believe, just to point out the rank hypocrisy and stupidity of certain posters on these threads.

I've made my points. I'll stop using bitter sarcasm and cynicism now and state clearly:

1)Hill murdered an abortionist, and deserved the punishment meeted out to him by the state. The state has the right, recognized in 2000 years of Christian moral theology, to impose capital punishment. But In all honesty, I have reservations about the death penalty.

2) Abortion may be "legal" but it is still a crime against humanity. Though it would be unjust to try them, by ex-post-facto prosecution once abortion is again made illegal, abortionists still must pay some measure of justice for their crimes. Revoking their licences and general social ostracizing would be minimum and insufficient justice.

3) Vigiliante "justice" and ex-post-facto law cannot be tolerated in a civil society. However, neither can judicial tyrrany and legislation by judicial fiat. Civil rebellion against judicial tyranny and legislation by judicial fiat is not now unwarranted. However, it may in the future be necessary. In the context of innevitable future civil rebellion against judicial tyranny and legislation by judicial fiat it is very likely that certain individuals might engage in vigilantism and ex-post-facto justice. Don't say I didn't tell you so.

4)In the current situation of pathological legalized violence in the form of "legal" baby murdering, everyone must understand that violence will always beget more violence, outside of the abortion clinics. Expect more cases like Hill. It is axiomatic that the violence of "legal" abortion will beget further violence, usually among the intellectually/emotionally/psychologically unstable.

5) Because it is axiomatic that violence, even the violence of "legal" abortion, will always beget further violence, it is evidence of gross ignorance of human nature and Natural Law that certain folks express surprise and dismay at the actions of someone like Hill.

6) Furthermore, to express more outrage at Hill's crime than the pathological violence ("legal" abortion) that precipitated Hill's crime is a symptom of a culture that has completely lost its moral compass and is on the straight and narrow path to self destruction.


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: briankopp; catholiclist; paulhill
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To: Polycarp
"I'm sick of these moral and mental midgets."

Are these "moral and mental midgets" the subjects to be discussed on your "conservative Catholics" threads?

I see very little that's "conservative" and even less "Catholic" in your use of the quoted terminology.

I see you carrying on about the "Judicial tyranny" that's to blame for all the abortions being performed in the U.S. today, what I've never seen is a Judge forcing a pregnant woman at gunpoint to have an abortion.

Maybe, if the moral fiber of the people in this nation were stronger, we wouldn't have an argument about whether abortion should be legal or not...because people would not be creating the unwanted pregnancies to begin with.

As far as Paul Hill..."Thou Shall Not Murder"...I don't see any qualifiers, or disclaimers attached to that...do you?

If it's wrong for the abortionists to kill the babies, it's equally as wrong for the mothers to walk into that office and request the procedure, as it was equally as wrong for Paul Hill to kill two people.

Paul Hill kept repeating that he had done God's work, he did nothing of the sort, he borke God's Commandment...just like that abortionist.

One last thing...I read that in his statement he admitted to putting the gun down after the killings because he did not wish to be killed by the police. Perhaps Paul Hill wanted what he never gave the people he killed, a chance to ask God for forgiveness for their sins.

361 posted on 09/04/2003 5:32:34 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (There's no such thing as a stupid question, there are however, many inquisitive morons out there...)
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To: Woahhs
I read the quote from his daughter, don't kid yourself.

The only person I've seen quoted in the press is a stepdaughter. I don't know her. If Dr. Britton remarried, it was after all his children were grown.

Sure, but none of them are abortionists.

Do you think God assigns categories to sins, or do you just do it yourself?

362 posted on 09/04/2003 5:36:12 PM PDT by Amelia
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Maybe, if the moral fiber of the people in this nation were stronger, we wouldn't have an argument about whether abortion should be legal or not...because people would not be creating the unwanted pregnancies to begin with.

I'd agree with you if not for the fact that the 'moral fiber' is being systematicly degraded at taxpayer expense. The founders may never have conceived of assault weapons, but they never conceived of the technologies of propaganda, advertising, and mass communication either.

363 posted on 09/04/2003 5:39:15 PM PDT by Woahhs
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To: Amelia
Do you think God assigns categories to sins

Yup.

364 posted on 09/04/2003 5:41:40 PM PDT by Woahhs
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To: Flurry
You offered, "But I have been assured by others on the thread that we can win if we kill enough people." Well, abortion in the U.S. has killed more than 42,000,000 since 1973. Have the abortion holocaust champions won? If so, what is it they've won? Do YOU consider the prenatal alive little ones to be human beings?
365 posted on 09/04/2003 5:46:52 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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To: Catspaw
You have a high opinion of yourself, eh ...

Catspaw
Since Oct 11, 2000
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"PUBLIC NOTICE My posts on Free Republic are Copyright 2003 catspaw. I grant my consent to Free Republic website to host my postings. My posts are not to be reproduced in whole or in part on another forum (ie Free Republic Sucks, Liberty Post, et al.). Reproducing of any posts by me without my prior consent may result in civil action without further warning. Reproduction of posts by me will also be viewed as a binding agreement by the party responsible for reproduction to pay me $5000.00 (US dollars) for each occurrence. The forum hosting my words without my consent will also agree to pay me $5000.00 (US dollars) for each occurrence. I grant users of the Free Republic permission to quote from my posts so long as the quotation is used solely on Free Republic and not on any other forum." Catspaw

366 posted on 09/04/2003 5:51:39 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
Just so we're clear on this... if you're going to flagrantly slander semaj, don't whine about gettin flagrantly slandered.
367 posted on 09/04/2003 5:55:10 PM PDT by Woahhs
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Great post, Luis.
368 posted on 09/04/2003 6:00:49 PM PDT by Amelia
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To: Woahhs
So if your family members "crossed the line" you wouldn't love them any more?
369 posted on 09/04/2003 6:09:58 PM PDT by Amelia
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To: Amelia
If a family member of mine performed abortions and I found out, I would disown that individual and never lay eyes on them again in my lifetime so long as it were possible ... and I would place them at the top of my prayer list and pray most earnestly for them, daily. What I would pray is not anyone's business, however.
370 posted on 09/04/2003 6:15:59 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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To: Woahhs
Last year, I vacationed in St. Augustine, America's oldest city. I booked a room literally across the street from the Castillo de San Marco, commonly known as the Old Fort.I spent a lort of time contemplating the Old Castillo...mostly with a cold one in my hands mind you.

The Spanish built the Forts' walls out of coquina, not the strongest rock around, yet, they did it anyway. As best as I can remember, the Old Castillo was never conquered.

You can still see the places in its walls where the cannon from pirate frigattes and British men-o-wars attempted to bring those walls down, the stone simply absorbed the shock, and the cannonball became part of the Castle.

I am raising my kids to survive all the propaganda, and all the outside media influences, I am teaching them that what does not kill you, can make you stronger. I will (when they are older) use the media to illustrate what is wrong in this world.

I am building kids with strong walls that can take the impact of this world, and remain solidly grounded on a firm base, with strong walls to repel the attacks on their morals.

371 posted on 09/04/2003 6:17:32 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (There's no such thing as a stupid question, there are however, many inquisitive morons out there...)
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To: MHGinTN
Do you think that if an abortionist repented and asked Jesus for forgiveness, he or she would receive forgiveness, or do you think such a person is beyond redemption?
372 posted on 09/04/2003 7:12:01 PM PDT by Amelia
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
You've refused to address the following question throughout this thread:

Is it worse to kill an innocent baby or to kill someone about to murder an innocent baby?

373 posted on 09/04/2003 7:19:25 PM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: Catspaw; Woahhs; Polycarp; MHGinTN; semaj; RaginCajunTrad
Catspaw, you've assailed Polycarp's tightly reasoned case with little success thus far.

Please explain for me:

On what moral grounds can one argue that John Britton is allowed to kill others for profit, but that Paul Hill is not allowed to use deadly force to defend those that John Britton is killing for profit?

I see two possible answers: (1) Killing children for profit is moral and using deadly force to defend those children is immoral according to some as yet unexplained system of moral reasoning or (2) Whatever the legal system countenances at any given moment is right and whatever the legal system does not countenance at any given moment is wrong.

If the right answer is (1) please explain the reasoning in greater detail. If the answer is (2), then just say so.

374 posted on 09/04/2003 7:28:26 PM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
As far as Paul Hill..."Thou Shall Not Murder"...I don't see any qualifiers, or disclaimers attached to that...do you?

If someone uses deadly force to prevent one person from killing an innocent third party, does that qualify as murder? Or is it something different?

375 posted on 09/04/2003 7:31:50 PM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: wideawake
"...does that qualify as murder?

Was Paul Hill executed for murder yesterday?

376 posted on 09/04/2003 7:33:15 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez (There's no such thing as a stupid question, there are however, many inquisitive morons out there...)
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To: wideawake
I see two possible answers: (1) Killing children for profit is moral and using deadly force to defend those children is immoral according to some as yet unexplained system of moral reasoning or (2) Whatever the legal system countenances at any given moment is right and whatever the legal system does not countenance at any given moment is wrong.

I don't think our legal system recognizes anyone as a person or a child until after birth. Legally, then, John Britton was not killing children, and what he was doing was legal (and, as someone noted above, he had the permission of the parents to do what he did).

Paul Hill, on the other hand, killed someone who was legally recognized as a person.

You can argue that our legal system is contradictory, and obviously in some cases it is - in some states you can be prosecuted for the death of an unborn child if, for example, you are intoxicated and at fault in a car wreck which causes a pregnant woman and her baby (or just the baby) to die - but if the woman were to have the same baby aborted, it would be perfectly legal. Go figure.

The part I really don't understand is the idea of the "partial birth" abortions being necessary for the health of the mother. It appears to me that if the woman could survive that procedure, she could survive childbirth, and as the "Baby Logan" and "Baby Sara Grace" threads show, even tiny babies are increasingly able to survive and thrive now.

377 posted on 09/04/2003 7:42:48 PM PDT by Amelia
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To: Amelia
You can argue that our legal system is contradictory

It is demonstrably self-contradictory. But let's move outside the legal sphere: is the legal moral, and vice versa? Or does morality have a foundation that transcends legal procedure?

The part I really don't understand is the idea of the "partial birth" abortions being necessary for the health of the mother.

You're not alone. Partial birth abortions have nothing to do with the mother's health.

They are an attempt to get around the common prohibition on third trimester abortions. PBA is a legal tactic without any medical significance.

378 posted on 09/04/2003 7:53:20 PM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: wideawake
Or does morality have a foundation that transcends legal procedure?

I don't know. Do we take things into our own hands, or do we believe God when he says vengeance is His?

Have you killed any abortion doctors to prevent abortions? If not, why not?

379 posted on 09/04/2003 8:05:57 PM PDT by Amelia
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To: Amelia
"Have you killed any abortion doctors to prevent abortions?"

I will exercise my 5th Amendment right to not answer that question your Honor.

380 posted on 09/04/2003 8:09:06 PM PDT by semaj ("....by their fruit you will know them.")
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