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To: Maelstrom
Then how is it that you believe the unwillingness of *conservatives* to yield to RINOs in Califonia has kept the GOP out of power? Unless your lifetime has been a very short one, you'd already know better.

Simple. It's the Big Tent theory. Only the True Believers and the already converted will support the conservative candidates. At least the current ones being offered. Reagan was the exception, but then again, just like Arnold, Reagan had *star power*. Star power goes a long way, especially in this state. I myself am in my 20s. I'm sure that is very young for this forum. I will explain something to you. If you want to have a Republican majority, at least a shot at it, you need to make some overtures to my generation, who are all solidly anti-republican. You need to change that perception before they finally get up of their asses and start voting. The Arnold appeal might be the catalyst.

See, conservatives are a minority in the state. I doubt very much they even make up the majority of Republicans - since as you keep pointing out the CA GOP keeps choosing RINOs - and as it is Republicans are the minority party. What does all of this add up to?

The only way to win elections is by having a majority. I know it is a new concept to people like you who think that if you just wish hard enough it will come true. You are just like the far-left howling at the wind on MoveOn who think Howard Dean could really defeat George W. We laugh at people like that.


Again, if you've spent a lifetime developing political philosophy, you'd know that *conservatives* aren't pushing for a religious sectarianism. That's a canard worthy of any progressive/communist around.

And yet the main complaint against Arnold is his acceptance of gays and his being pro-choice. The only canard is the one that the vehement opposition to these positions is somehow not completely religiously motivated. The adamant desire by the far-right to legislate Christianity is in fact indicative of said religious sectarianism.


This forum is for conservatives, you're the opposite of a conservative with maybe 2-3 issues where you're not completely a liberal...maybe not.

There are many different interpritations of "conservativism". I'm not going to sit back and allow the most extreme elements hi-jack the word. I get the feeling like most of the far-right are only "conservative" on issues of morality. They certainly aren't for limited government. They want the state to expand to include church.


I'm a libertarian. Saying "God" in a public place isn't an establishment of religion.

I agree with that. Individuals are free to say God where ever they want and as often as they like. However, putting "In God We Trust" on our national currency clearly establishes the US as a religious country. That is the very definition of "establishment of religion". The only argument used to weasel out of it has been claiming that "God" pertains to multiple religions. Yeah, three, and they are all inter-related, excluding anyone who doesn't practice a desert religion.

A great many Constitutional conservatives believe that "under god" and other such usages violate the 1st amendment. You may or may not know, several attempts prior to 1954 were made by fundamentalist Congressmen to stick that in the Pledge, and were defeated on the floor on Constitutional objections every time. Finally, after much lobbying by the Christian lobbyist group The Knights of Columbus. It was in fact quite controversial at the time.

Finally, If you accept the whole "ceremonial deism" justification put forth by activist judges that makes the old liberal argument of "well, it is, but it isn't", then that just might make YOU a "liberal" too. Perhaps YOU have no place on this forum being you are a Constitutional LIBERAL.


Now, it's not *my* fault that homosexuality is a mental disorder, it can be treated, it is absolutely wrong to recognize is legally as an acceptible condition.

First of all, let me tell you that your statement is extremely offensive to many people here even, I am sure. It smacks of pure bigotted ignorance. That attitude is not going to get Republicans anywhere in California. Once again, go join Pat Buchanan's party.


Worse...I haven't advcocated *any* government powers and I have a tag line that's very specific. Exactly what authoritarian schemes do you think I support?

Good. so you don't believe in legislating morality at all.
Then why are we having this debate?

I sort of assumed you desired controlling the morality of popular culture through legislative means, being that the moral views of political candidates are so important to you.


"I have said NOTHING about socialism. I have only talked about the evolution of American attitudes on culture."

The core of that culture is freedom. You *have* spoken about socialism it's the core of the "progressive" attack on culture.

I don't even follow this line.
The core of which culture is freedom? Socialism?

Because I've talked about the historical advancement of individual freedom in America only, NOT economic collectivism.
If you think what I've spoken about is the definition of Socialism, then I think you need a refresher course on just what Socialism is. I also think you may be a paranoid delusional.


It's part and parcel of Arnold's political economics and is reflected in his choice of economic advisor: Warren Buffet. Again...had you spent a significant amount of time thinking about a political philosophy, these things would be evident to you. You are intelligent enough to make this realization.

I wouldn't mind Warren Buffet as my personal economic advisor, regardless of his party affiliation. I would be a lot richer than I am today. But then again I suppose you are much more clever than him...


I have grown tired of your post. The rest of it doesn't even merit a response, other than me needing to point out that Arnold hasn't even laid out an economic plan yet. "The children should have first call on the treasury." is not a fiscal plan or even an economic philosophy. It is merely lipservice for the sake of politics.

And no, I don't really care what Arnold's economic plan is. I don't think either he or the other 2 Republicans can actually effect much change in Sacramento. It is totally in the Democrats' hands. If anything, losing McClintock from the State Senate would be a HUGE blow to our power in Sacramento.

So for right now my main priority is putting the best public face on the GOP in California, since that is all the Governor will actually amount to.

705 posted on 08/14/2003 9:25:14 AM PDT by DrMartinVonNostrand
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To: DrMartinVonNostrand
ok...

Let's look at the Big Tent Theory, after all this "Big Tent Theory" very effectively kept the GOP in the minority for 60+ years after FDR. What happened in 1994? The Contract with America removed the Big Tent...and Republicans were elected. Reagan wasn't the exception...he was the freaking RULE! That's why you can't point to a conservative in the presidential office for *decades* other than HIM.

How is it that you can you still believe in the Big Tent since we now KNOW it drives away the people you *need* in favor of people you want?

Conservatives are a minority voter in California.
But then...they are more common than the conservative candidate. Which tells me you don't know much about CA politics.

The only way to win elections is to have a majority in the number of voters. There are many ways to accomplish this and the Democrats frequently use Fraud, they also infiltrate the Republicans and water down the conservative message so that the conservative voter simply can't tell the Republican from the Democrat.

You might be interested in electing Republicans...and it seems you can't see beyond that point. The (R) behind the name doesn't solve CA's problems, it creates more...and it doesn't solve the Republican's problems, it creates more.

As for your *perception* of the primary arguments against Arnold. The primary argument is singular: He isn't even "moderately" conservative. It's noteable that those liberal causes are the ones that resonate with you most.

Warren Buffet should have ended your support for Arnold if you had a bit of intellectual honesty. I'll concede that you might simply continue to support Swartzenegger out of ignorance. Buffet's selection irrefuteably denies the sole support you've expressed for Arnold (other than the superficial "he can win").

You'll have to describe to me how you think you're a conservative. You haven't met any standard I could consider. Socially, you're a liberal...and seem to think that this is the way all of California is going. Obviously that's false, at *most* sections of the major cities are that way, but cities are famous for falling into degeneracy before chaos overtakes them. Economically, you claim to be a conservative and seem to think that Arnold is as well, however, Arnold's own statements refute that concept, and his selection of Buffet demolishes the concept altogether.

I'm sorry you're offended by being reminded that homosexuality is a mental disorder. That's not my problem. I studied the issue for 4 years before my conclusion was reached. I didn't study the issue to please anyone offering grants. I'm not overly concerned by the facts of life being offensive. Homosexuality is a mental disorder.

It has a big problem too...it's the only mental disorder with political clout just as the primary disease affecting it has political clout. So, should anyone have the GALL to DARE question preconceptions concerning homosexuality, they're labelled ignorant, bigotted, or whatever demonizing term is du jour. Facts is facts, and you can choose to do your own study or believe the crap specifically tailored to persuade you that buggering one another is acceptable.

Morals dictate certain fundamental laws. Morality determines when a person is hurt by another, why, and laws are necessary to dictate a punishment. I wouldn't legislate morals against things that do not directly impact other people. So...go ahead and have a prostitute...I won't make it illegal, I'll send the photo of you and the prostitute to your wife. Go ahead and use drugs...I won't make it illegal, I'll just make sure you're never employed by anyone. Hell...if you OD on drugs, I'd rule it a suicide, and cart your corpse off to the

Let's back up a bit though...
...you say conservatives are a minority in the state. You imply that "things gotta change" and that this "change" would be the compromise of conservative principles to elect a Republican.

Since *when* has the Californian GOP...dominated by RINOs mind you...supported conservative candidates????

Yes...something's gotta change. The RINO's out there need to realize that it's time to do their fair share and support a conservative.

The "progressives" don't support the individual freedom of people in California nor America. Please do some homework on the subject. It isn't about freedom for gays...it's about dividing people into small easily conquored segments.

You don't know Warren Buffet...other than the fact he's rich.

You couldn't possibly be very old if you've spent your entire life and come up with this conclusion. IF YOU ARE...then you couldn't possibly have studied very hard.

It's far easier to accept that you're a liberal yourself rather than so absolutely ignorant about California, Republicans, conservatives, and their electability.
708 posted on 08/14/2003 10:30:54 AM PDT by Maelstrom (To prevent misinterpretation or abuse of the Constitution:The Bill of Rights limits government power)
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