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To: jennyp
Spin city. Let's get some more direct perspective from Marx himself:

Karl Marx on Darwin:
"Darwin’s work is most important and suits my purpose in that it provides a basis in natural science for the historical class struggle. One does, of course, have to put up with the clumsy English style of argument. Despite all shortcomings, it is here that, for the first time, ‘teleology’ in natural science is not only dealt a mortal blow but its rational meaning is empirically explained."
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1861/letters/61_01_16.htm

The "teology" of which he speaks is religion. God.
So there you have it in a nutshell. Of course, we've been all around this before and you did not like the results. I'm perfect willing to go another more definitive round to show that Marxism embraces evolution for specific reasons, but the bigger question is, how do you feel about defending Marxism in order to "cleanse all spots" from your belief system? hmm?

Think about it.

2,045 posted on 08/09/2003 5:45:11 PM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: ALS
"...it is here that, for the first time, ‘teleology’ in natural science is not only dealt a mortal blow but its rational meaning is empirically explained."

This passage never ceases to make me laugh. Let's look at "Teleology"...

Main Entry: tel·e·ol·o·gy
Pronunciation: "te-lE-'ä-l&-jE, "tE-
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin teleologia, from Greek tele-, telos end, purpose + -logia -logy -- more at WHEEL
Date: 1740
1 a : the study of evidences of design in nature b : a doctrine (as in vitalism) that ends are immanent in nature c : a doctrine explaining phenomena by final causes
2 : the fact or character attributed to nature or natural processes of being directed toward an end or shaped by a purpose
3 : the use of design or purpose as an explanation of natural phenomena

What irony - Marx's theory of dialectical materialism is the ultimate teleological theory! What hubris he had, to think he had found some sort of mechanistic law of historical progression (an idea borrowed from Hegel & then inverted), that would let him predict what societies would "evolve" into. And then to say that people should engage in real-world violent revolutions in order to make his prophesies come true!

The true heart of his quote, IMO, is where he says Darwinism "suits my purpose". As I showed in 2043 with Pannekoek, Marxists view scientific theories thru the lens of their use-value for the class struggle. So if they can make any kind of superficial comparison between a successful scientific theory and their current polemical needs, they'll support it. It has nothing to do with their judgement of its actual truth.

2,051 posted on 08/09/2003 6:23:53 PM PDT by jennyp (Science thread posters: I've signed The Agreement. Have you?)
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To: ALS
Spin city. Let's get some more direct perspective from Marx himself:

What happened to poor Pannekoek? Do his words no longer suit your purpose?

2,054 posted on 08/09/2003 6:33:36 PM PDT by jennyp (Science thread posters: I've signed The Agreement. Have you?)
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