[CobaltBlue]

I think I've had an epiphany.

I've been puzzling and puzzling over the assertion that Christ created the Universe.

Finally, this evening I realized that it was completely contrary to the Apostle's Creed, to wit:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
    the Creator of heaven and earth,
    and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
    born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell. [see Calvin]
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
    and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
    whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and life everlasting.
Amen.

Peeling it back, I think the stumbling block is how one translates the prologue in the Gospel of John. I propose to use the Tyndale translation:

1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.

2 The same was in the beginnynge with God.

3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.

4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men

5 and the lyght shyneth in the darcknes but the darcknes comprehended it not.

The King James Version uses the Latin Vulgate, but Tyndale used the Greek, admittedly from Erasmus' version, not the earliest versions. Still, all the translations from the Greek seem to track Tyndale, not the King James version.

Going back to the ancient Greek, the strongest assertion you can make about Christ vis-a-vis the creation is that God the Father created though Christ. And that's only if you believe that Logos is identical to Christ, which isn't apparent from the plain language of John.

[js1138]

I am neither a theologian nor a philosopher, but the trinity seems analogous to quantum duality. Whichever manifestation we experience depends on what we are lookng for at the time. It is our mental limitations that cause the apparent paradox.

[f.Christian]

Do you think God sent a surrogate to save me ?

[AndrewC]

And that's only if you believe that Logos is identical to Christ, which isn't apparent from the plain language of John.

Prior to your statement is this...

and the worde was God

Seems fairly plain to me, unless you propose to add one to the Trinity.

[scripter]

As AndrewC pointed out from your post: and the worde was God... unless you're adding to the trinity... Then we have John 1:10 the world was made through him which to me is really obvious.

Also 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Colossians 1:16 all things came from God and Jesus and by him all things were created by Jesus.

Lastly there's the Hebrews passage 1:2 and through whom [Jesus] made the [universe/worlds/world].

It's not just John 1:1 that references Jesus as creator.