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To: VadeRetro
Tell you the truth--and I mean this--I used to have "Deistic moments" routinely until I started arguing with creationists. They're quite rare now. "Faith in things unseen" has for me acquired an association with bizarre disconnection from reality.

I've become more theistic over the years. I suppose, if you really pressed me at any pont, that I've always been and still am an agnostic, but as a young man I was far to the atheistic end of the spectrum, and often called myself an atheist, whereas today I am equally far to the theistic end, and often call myself a theist.

In my case I think creationism helped me to move toward a theistic view, but in a round-about way. I was intially intrigued by creationism when I read Francis Hitchins The Neck of the Giraffe many, many moons ago, and then located and read some of the more conventional creationist works (e.g. by H. Morris & D. Gish) that it referenced.

I didn't buy the main thesis of the creationists, but I thought they might be on to something, that they may be indentifying (if overinterpreting) some real problems with conventional evolutionary theory. So, being a young man then, and having the time for such things, I spent my spare time over several months in some good academic libraries tracing out the footnotes from Henry Morris, Duane Gish, et al.

What I discovered was that creationism was complete, utter and unmitigated bovine excrement. Not one significant creationist claim or interpretation that I investigated checked out. Not one! The evidence supporting them simply did not exist in the original sources, although compelling evidence for their contradiction often did. I was pretty shocked by this actually. I had a great respect for books and, naive young fellow that I was, wouldn't have believed that people who wrote them could engage in the kind of pervasive and perverse prevarication that I discovered.

I also discovered as a result of my investigations that the evidence for evolution was very much stronger than I had imagined, and that the theoretical basis was much more carefully considered and elaborated than I ever would have guessed. So reading the creationist literature transformed me from being somewhat skeptical of evolution to having great confidence in the theory.

At the same time, the realization that, "well, this is clearly b.s.," sort of took a literal interpretation of creation, and corresponding ideas of a tinkering, interventionist God, off the table for me. This eventually led me to think about deeper ways that God might be related to the world as its Creator. So reading creationism also (over a longer time span) did also make me more theistic, but only because it realized it was wrong!

2,095 posted on 07/13/2003 10:24:54 PM PDT by Stultis
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To: Stultis
"What I discovered was that creationism was complete, utter and unmitigated bovine excrement. Not one significant creationist claim or interpretation that I investigated checked out. Not one! The evidence supporting them simply did not exist in the original sources, although compelling evidence for their contradiction often did. I was pretty shocked by this actually. I had a great respect for books and, naive young fellow that I was, wouldn't have believed that people who wrote them could engage in the kind of pervasive and perverse prevarication that I discovered."
2,097 posted on 07/13/2003 10:29:50 PM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: Stultis
2100?
2,100 posted on 07/13/2003 10:35:05 PM PDT by Aric2000 (If the history of science shows us anything, it is that we get nowhere by labeling our ignorance god)
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To: Stultis; Aric2000
Matthew 9:23-26

23 And when Jesus came into the ruler’s house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,
24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.
26 And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.

The scientists who continually have to change their thesis are not the creator.

There are those at the door of your heart that are trying to keep Jesus out. The minstrels in their own wisdom who laugh Jesus to scorn.

But if you call on Him He will put them forth and settle your mind and heart by making you spiritually alive. He will wake you from your slumber and personally open your soul to the truth about Him.

A simple thing you can do, set aside your will and preconditions and ask Him to come into your house to wake you.

The Founding Fathers did this at some point in their life and with the divine inspiration came up with the most fantastic mode of governance the world has ever seen.

Maybe when you become His he will use you to produce the irrefutable evidence that He wants to share with the world.

If He doesn't have the power to wake you then you have lost nothing for calling Him to your house.
2,116 posted on 07/13/2003 11:17:05 PM PDT by bondserv
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To: Stultis; Aric2000
I also discovered as a result of my investigations that the evidence for evolution was very much stronger than I had imagined, and that the theoretical basis was much more carefully considered and elaborated than I ever would have guessed. So reading the creationist literature transformed me from being somewhat skeptical of evolution to having great confidence in the theory.

I was, for most of my life, very fundamentalist Christian and believed in Creationism...that is, until I went to college. Like you, my investigations revealed the same thing - that the evidence for evolution was well-researched and staggering not only in the sheer volume of information amassed, but in it's complexity and far-reaching implications.

At the same time, the realization that, "well, this is clearly b.s.," sort of took a literal interpretation of creation, and corresponding ideas of a tinkering, interventionist God, off the table for me. This eventually led me to think about deeper ways that God might be related to the world as its Creator. So reading creationism also (over a longer time span) did also make me more theistic, but only because it realized it was wrong!

Precisely! Any God powerful enough to will the Universe into being would not need to be tinkering about with His creation. He would have thought it all out ahead of time and known what would happen, where it would happen, and when it would happen...and herein lies the irony of the entire Christian-Creationist dogma. Christians are very big on claiming omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience as characteristics of God...but in reality, they do not believe it...for in their world, God must act directly from time-to-time to "fix" His creation, insert a species here, or take one out there.

To paraphrase Darth Vader, I find their lack of faith disturbing.

2,117 posted on 07/13/2003 11:38:10 PM PDT by Aracelis (Oh, evolve!)
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To: Stultis
In about the 12th grade I invented determinism--didn't name it that, but so far as I knew then it was my invention--and decided that if there was a God at all He had set it all in motion to whatever end and probably stood back and watched in satisfaction. We were either all in some kind of intervention-free God Machine or simply a Godless universe and there could be no telling which. Previously a kid raised as a Methodist but who had his serious doubts, I had become a full-fledged agnostic, and at least knew the word for that.

Like you, I've drifted around within the agnostic spectrum, but continued to believe that nobody who claims to know for sure that there is or is not a God has a clue. For sure, God shouldn't be telling people to sabotage science teaching, or to get out there and lie their keisters off for him.

2,128 posted on 07/14/2003 5:48:13 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: Stultis
The evidence supporting them simply did not exist in the original sources, although compelling evidence for their contradiction often did.

That's why some of the original sources found in the designeduniverse links are so precious. Anyone who reads the original source, then the "interpretation" will get an education.

2,153 posted on 07/14/2003 7:54:24 AM PDT by js1138
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