Biology textbook hearings prompt science disputes [Texas]

Knight Ridder Newspapers ^ | 08 July 2003 | MATT FRAZIER

[js1138]

Yes, I believe you have analyzed it correctly as a component of free will. The reference from Isaiah also gives the reason.

And also the reason given in Time Bandits. But there are some interesting questions to be asked about intentionality and about how things that were originally perfect could be capable of backsliding. And how we got stuck in version 1.0 of reality. Never buy version 1.0.

[CobaltBlue]

There are three choices:

1. objective reality is wrong, and they're interpreting the book right;

2. objective reality is right, and they're interpreting the book wrong.

3. Or maybe the book is wrong.

[AndrewC]

But if you take God-in-general out of the picture, and put Jesus Christ in charge, then only Christians who believe exactly the way they believe have a chance of being right.

Then, what was this all about?

I pray that Christ remove all deception from your heart and mine.

I ask this in the Name of Christ our Lord, Amen.

In light of --->

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

[RightWingNilla]

vanilla placemarker

[AndrewC]

And also the reason given in Time Bandits. But there are some interesting questions to be asked about intentionality and about how things that were originally perfect could be capable of backsliding. And how we got stuck in version 1.0 of reality. Never buy version 1.0.

I choose to accept as source something rather older than twentysome years.

As to your questions, again that has to do with free will. And you can only validly state "how I got stuck in version 1.0 of reality".

[js1138]

I'm not convinced that a book that is absolutely true in every detail needs to have embedded warnings: believe every word of this or burn forever. I don't think a book that has been proofread and certified error free by the creator of the universe would contain the kind of context switches found in the Bible. Slavery is OK for some times and places, genocide is OK for a startup nation, incest is OK when the creator has killed off all the eligible non-relatives, certain foods are unclean for a while (possibly for health reasons, but then why give the OK 1900 years before the health reasons are understood?), divorce is OK, then not OK (maybe it was never OK, but permitted for a while because people really, really wanted to get divorced, so it was allowed).

All these suggest an evolving code of ethics and morality. At the very least they suggest an evolving understanding of morality.

[CobaltBlue]

One of the things that Catholics believe is that good Jews, good Muslims, good pagans (and even good Protestants) may be saved, but it's actually easier for a pagan.

You see, a good and pious pagan, who never heard of Jesus, but believes in God, and has lived a good and Godly life, will be saved.

A Protestant can be saved if the Protestant is capable of making an act of perfect contrition, which means (gross oversimplification here) being sorry that you've sinned simply because sin is wrong, not because you're afraid of going to Hell. If you are not capable of making an act of perfect contrition, then you can only obtain forgiveness through the Sacrament of Confession.

So, as a Catholic I believe in Jesus Christ, but I accept that good pagans, good Jews, good Muslims, and even good Protestants who seek God with a true heart will be saved.

"'Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council [Vatican II] teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse to enter it or to remain in it. (Lumen Gentium 14)'

. . . .

"'Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience-those too may achieve eternal salvation.' (Lumen Gentium 16)"
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

[CobaltBlue]

>>an evolving understanding of morality<<

Agreed, especially because it appears to me to have gotten better over time. Compassion seems far preferable to stoning and burning.

[AndrewC]

You see, a good and pious pagan, who never heard of Jesus, but believes in God, and has lived a good and Godly life, will be saved.

How do you square that with--->

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

You seem to be saying a good Wiccan does not need a Savior.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your reply and for sharing your concerns and for giving me the opportunity to testify! Hugs!!!

Ascribing the universe to an anthropic God--literally one whose image is mirrored in our own--fully formed from somewhere outside of His creation and infinitely capable, simply moves the question forever out of reach. (Another thing: His omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence would seem to contradict the statement that our image is His image.)

Perhaps some of the confusion is in what is meant by “image” in which context. In Hebrews 1:3-12 – Jesus is shown as the “express image” of the Father’s person and the meaning is explained:

Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

The Greek root word for express image is charakter means a marked likeness, a precise reproduction in every respect. Notably, it is only used to describe Jesus.

Compare that to Genesis 1 and 2 where man is being made in “our image:”

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. – Genesis 1:26-27

The usage of the Hebrew root word for likeness d@muwth shows that it means appearance. The same is true for the Hebrew root word for image tselem

You continued…

I marvel that people not only think they know absurd details of the God story, but that they imagine the answers as obvious.

Indeed, we are quite certain of what has been revealed to us by the Spirit. And we who have the indwelling of the Spirit cannot be moved:

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. – I Corinthians 2:11-16

[f.Christian]

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[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your post!

But there are some interesting questions to be asked about intentionality and about how things that were originally perfect could be capable of backsliding.

How could you teach your students obedience without describing disobedience? How could you explain light without darkness? How could you describe what is good without showing what is bad? What language could you use to communicate, if there were no contrasts?

[PatrickHenry]

Troll-free P L A C E M A R K E R

[VadeRetro]

Thanks for taking the trouble. I guess I can make a mental note to suspect translation differences on blatant apparent contradictions such as the one in my little aside about "in His image" versus "omniscient, etc."

[f.Christian]

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[f.Christian]

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[f.Christian]

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[PatrickHenry]

Another burst of insane, deranged, raving creationoid postings ... intellectual diarrhea!!

[f.Christian]

Cyber virtual ignore under the bridge truth needs a bath troll schlock placemaker !

[f.Christian]

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