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To: rustbucket
Confederates believed quite strongly they were following the Constitution...

That is ridiculous. If that were true, they would have --insisted-- that the legality of secession be brought before the Supreme Court, as required by the Judiciary Act of 1789.

Many of the rebels tried to correlate their actions with those of the revolutionary generation. They well knew they were going outside the law. How do you think George Washington gott on the great seal of the so-called CSA? Because he was a revolutionary. It sure wasn't because he advocated an "immovable attachment" to the national union.

And this reverence for law you imply didn't stop the planters from trying to denounce their debts to northern creditors either.

The rebel congress passed in May, 1861 a bill that required PRIVATE debt owed to northerrn creditors ( a sum of @ $200,000,000) be paid to the rebel treasury.

The rebels were backwards, dishonorable bums, every one of them.

I was just reading last night about how Robert E. Lee, supposedly so unwilling to see Virginia coerced by the federal government, was very willling to see men coerced into the service of the insurgency. He supported the conscription act of 1862.

Walt

960 posted on 07/01/2003 4:22:59 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
"The rebels were backwards, dishonorable bums, every one of them. I was just reading last night about how Robert E. Lee, supposedly so unwilling to see Virginia coerced by the federal government, was very willling to see men coerced into the service of the insurgency. He supported the conscription act of 1862."

Leave it up to a hate-filled liberal like you to slander your betters. Speaking of a draft: Your precious North had a draft, as well. Oh, but that is not a coercion; it is only when the South did it that you criticize the act.

982 posted on 07/01/2003 6:09:04 AM PDT by ought-six
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To: WhiskeyPapa
rb: Confederates believed quite strongly they were following the Constitution...

WP: That is ridiculous. If that were true, they would have --insisted-- that the legality of secession be brought before the Supreme Court, as required by the Judiciary Act of 1789.

They believed the Constitution allowed them to secede. Once seceded, US laws did not apply to them -- they were no longer part of the US. They did not have to go to the Supreme Court to get a blessing.

If you don't understand where they were coming from, Walt, you really don't have a good understanding of the war.

986 posted on 07/01/2003 7:51:56 AM PDT by rustbucket
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To: WhiskeyPapa
The rebel congress passed in May, 1861 a bill that required PRIVATE debt owed to northerrn creditors ( a sum of @ $200,000,000) be paid to the rebel treasury.
'On a review of authorities, I am entirely satisfied that, by the rigor of the law of nations and of the common law, the sovereign of a nation may lawfully confiscate the debts of his enemy, during war, or by way of reprisal: and I will add, that I think this opinion fully confirmed by the judgement of the Supreme Court in Ware v. Hylton, 3, Dall. 199, where the doctrine was explicitly asserted by some of the judges, reluctantly admitted by others, and denied by none.'
Justice Story, Brown v. The United States, 8 Cranch 110 (1814)

But it wasn't just a Southern thing, the Radical Republicans repudiated the confederate debts via the 14th Amendment.

1,087 posted on 07/01/2003 8:53:20 PM PDT by 4CJ ("No man's life, liberty or property are safe while dims and neocons are in control")
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To: WhiskeyPapa; rustbucket
[Walt] The rebels were backwards, dishonorable bums, every one of them.

Say what you want about politicians, but the soldiers were soldiers. What you call backwards, dishonorable bums, outnumbered and outgunned, fought bravely and killed more of the other side than they lost. If they were all backwards, dishonorable bums, why is that?

[Walt] I was just reading last night about how Robert E. Lee, supposedly so unwilling to see Virginia coerced by the federal government, was very willling to see men coerced into the service of the insurgency. He supported the conscription act of 1862.

Read on, the Union conscripted slaves.

In Missouri, it was ordered that, "all able-bodied colored men, whether free or slaves, will be received into the service * * * The state and county in which the enlistments are made shall be credited with the recruits enlisted * * * the owner of each slave enlisted a just compensation for his services, not exceeding the sum of $300..."

Massa could take his slave down to the recruiting office and enlist him in the U.S. Army. He could get $300 now, or keep his slave until the end of the war and get nothing. As a bonus, the state and county was credited with the enlistment. That's one way to fill a quota. For every slave enlisted in such manner, a white man did not have to go.

The Springfield Republican, (Mass.), March, 1863 "Well, it is more than five months since the President announced his intention to proclaim emancipation, and two months since the proclamation was formally made, and the negroes still remain quietly on the Southern plantations. The rebel armies have not dispersed to hunt flying negroes, but are larger and stronger than ever before. The market prIce of negroes is at its highest -- the negroes within our lines show no passionate eagerness to fight, and even Gen. Hunter has been obliged to resort to forcible conscription to fill up his negro regiments, and that too, where the expedient of making negro soldiers has been longest in operation. Neither are the promises of the dreadful effect of the proclamation upon the people of the North realized. Gov. Andrew's 'swarms' do not throng the roads of Massachusetts, and volunteering has been at a stand still.

General W.T. Sherman: "When we reached Savannah we were beset by ravenous State Agents from Hilton Head, South Carolina, who enticed and carried away our servants and the corps of pioneers which we had organized, and which had done such excellent service. On one occasion my own aide-de-camp, Colonel Audenreid, found at least a hundred poor negroes shut up in a house and pen, waiting for the night, to be conveyed stealthily to Hilton Head. They appealed to him for protection alleging that they had been told that they must be soldiers; that 'Massa Lincoln' wanted them. I never denied the slaves a full opportunity for enlistment, but I did prohibit force to be used, for I knew that the State Agents were more influenced by the profit they derived from the large bounties than by any love of country or of the colored race."

Leland (Lincoln, p. 61, et seq.) quotes a soldier as saying, "I used to be opposed to having black troops, but when I was ten cart-loads of dead n-----s carried off the field yesterday I thought it better they should be killed than I." [Elision not in original]

http://www.ehistory.com/uscw/library/or/124/1034.cfm

Official Records, Series 3, Vol 3, Part 1 (Union Letters, Orders, Reports) p. 1034 et seq

GENERAL ORDERS, HDQRS. DEPARTMENT OF THE MISSOURI, Numbers 135.

Saint Louis, Mo., November 14, 1863.

Whereas the exigencies of the war require that colored troops should be recruited in the State of Missouri, the following regulations, having been approved and ordered by the President, will govern the recruiting service for colored troops in Missouri, viz:

I. All able-bodied colored men, whether free or slaves, will be received into the service, the loyal owners of slaves enlisted being entitled to receive compensation as hereinafter provided.
II. All persons enlisted into the service shall forever thereafter be free..
III. None but able-bodied persons shall be enlisted..
IV. The State and county in which the enlistments are made shall be credited with the recruits enlisted..
V. The owner of every slave recruited into the service shall receive from the recruiting officer a certificate to that effect, together witch a copy of the descriptive list of the person enlisted..
VI. A board of three persons is to be appointed by the President, to whom the rolls and recruiting lists shall be furnished, for public information, and on demand exhibited to any person claiming under oath that his or her slave has been enlisted, and that he or she has not received a certificate and descriptive list, as provided in paragraph V. Any such person shall also be permitted to inspect the recruits at any recruiting station, or at the general rendezvous, for the purpose of identification..
VII. If any person shall, within ten days after the filing of said rolls, make a claim for the service of any person so enlisted, the Boards shall proceed to examine the proof of title, and, if valid, shall give a certificate of enlistment and descriptive list, as provided in paragraph V..
VIII. The Board shall award to the owner of each slave enlisted a just compensation for his services, not exceeding the sum of $ 300, upon the presenting by said owner of the certificate of enlistment and filling a valid deed of manumission and of release, and making satisfactory proof of title. Provided: First. That no person who is or has been engaged in rebellion against the Government of the United States, or who has in any way given or shall give aid or comfort to the enemies of the Government, shall be awarded any compensation for the services of any slaves enlisted into the service of the United States. Second. That no compensation shall be awarded for the services of any slave who has at any time during the present rebellion belonged to any person who has been in rebellion or given aid or comfort to the enemies of the Goverll claimants shall file with their claims an oath of allegiance to the Government of the United States..
IX. The Board shall give the claimant a certificate of the sum awarded, which, on presentation, will be paid by the chief of the Bureau for Organizing Colored Troops..
X. Enlistments will be made under the direction of the provost- marshal-general of the department, by the district and assistant provost-marshals, and by no other persons..
XI. Triplicate descriptive lists will be made out in every case upon printed forms to be furnished from the Provost-Marshal- General's Office. One copy to be sent by mail to the Provost- Marshal-General, another copy to be sent with the recruits to the rendezvous, and the third copy to be given to the owner of the person enlisted if said enlisted person be a slave. If the enlisted person be free or his owner unknown the third copy of the descriptive list will also be sent to the Provost-Marshal- General..
XII. Each provost-marshal shall keep a record of all enlistments made by him of the same form as the descriptive roll..
XIII. All recruits will be sent to Saint Louis in parties, in charge of an officer or non-commissioned officer, who will also have charge of their descriptive lists, and will be reported to the officer in charge of colored troops at the general rendezvous at Benton Barracks..
XIV. Colonel William A. Pile, Thirty-third Missouri Volunteers, is placed in charge of the colored recruits at Benton Barracks. He will organize them into companies and regiments, in accordance with existing orders, and present them to the commissary of musters at Benton Barracks for muster into service..
XV. The officers for these regiments are to be appointed by the Secretary of War, after examination by a board of officers now in session in Saint Louis. Applications for permission to appear before this board, accompanied by satisfactory certificates of loyalty and good character, will be approved by the commanding general and forwarded to the War Department..
XVI. The surgeon on duty at any post or station where enlistments may be made will examine all recruits that may be presented to him by the provost-marshal, and determine their fitness for military service. No person will be enlisted until he shall have passed a satisfactory examination, as prescribed by Army Regulations. The examining surgeon and recruiting officer will sign the proper certificate, attached to the descriptive list..
XVII. All district and other commanders are directed to afford the provost-marshals all facilities necessary to the successful and speedy prosecution of this recruiting service. Upon the requisition of provost-marshals the necessary officers and non- commissioned officers will be detailed to take charge of recruits at the several recruiting stations, and to conduct them to Saint Louis..
XVIII. Subsistence will be issued to recruits upon provision returns signed by the provost-marshals. Issuing commissaries will keep separate accounts of subsistence so issued and report the same to the chief commissary of the department. No other supplies will be issued to recruits until they reach the general rendezvous..
XIX. Transportation orders for parties of colored recruits signed by provost-marshals will be honored by the quartermaster's department, and respected by the officers of all railroads and steam-boats in this department..

By command of Major-General Schofield:.
O. D. GREENE,.
Assistant Adjutant-General.

=========

http://www.ehistory.com/uscw/library/or/125/0621.cfm.
Official Records, Series 3, vol 4, Part 1 (Union Letters, Orders, Reports). p. 621

GENERAL ORDERS,.
HDQRS. DEPARTMENT OF THE SOUTH, Numbers 119..
Hilton Head, S. C., August 16, 1864..

In view of the necessities of the military service, the want of recruits to complete the unfilled regiments in this department, the greater numbers of unemployed colored men and deserters hiding about to avoid labor or service, and in consideration of the large bounties now paid to volunteers by the Government, General Orders, Numbers 17, dated headquarters Department of the South, Hilton Head, S. C., March 6, 1863, is hereby amended to read as follows:

I. All able-bodied colored men between the ages of eighteen and fifty, within the military lines of the Department of the South, who have had an opportunity to enlist voluntarily and refused to do so, shall be drafted into the military service of the United States, to serve as non-commissioned officers and soldiers in the various regiments and batteries now being organized in the department.

II. Whenever any laborer shall be taken from any of the departments of the army their places shall be filled from those who are exempted by the surgeons as unfit for military duty by the superintendent of volunteer recruiting.

III. Deserters from regiments organized in this department who shall give themselves up on or before the 10th day of September, 1864, shall receive full pardon and be restored to duty.

IV. The owners or superintendents of plantations, and all other persons throughout the department not in the military service, are hereby authorized and required to arrest and deliver to the local provost-marshal of the nearest military post all deserters in their employ or loitering about their plantations, and if it be necessary for a guard to make the arrest, it shall be the duty of such person or persons knowing of the whereabouts of any deserter, or person by common reports called a deserter, to report the fact to the nearest military commander, and also to render him all assistance in his power to cause the arrest. Any person found guilty of violating this section shall be severely punished.

V. District provost-marshals are hereby directed to cause the arrest of all idle persons, and all persons within the military lines of their respective districts, either white to black, who have not proper and visible means to support, and to turn them over immediately to the general superintendent of volunteer recruiting service or his agents for conscription.

The Provost-Marshal-General and general superintendent of volunteer recruiting are charged with a strict enforcement of this order..
by command of Major General J. G. Foster: .
W. L. M. BURGER, .
Assistant Adjutant-General. .

http://www.ehistory.com/uscw/library/or/020/0466.cfm

Official Records, Series 1, vol 14, Part 1

pages 466-467

HEADQUARTERS DEPARTMENT OF THE SOUTH,.
Hilton Head, S. C., June 9, 1863..
Colonel JAMES MONTGOMERY,.
Commanding Second S. C. Regiment, Saint Simon's Island: .

COLONEL: I have the honor of transmitting herewith a copy of General Orders, No. 100, of the War Department, current series, promulgating a system of "Instructions for the government of armies of the United States in the field," prepared by an eminent international and military jurist, Dr. Francis Lieber, revised by a board of high officers, and approved and established by the President of the United States.

To sections I, II, III of these instructions I beg to call your particular attention; not that in any manner I doubt the justice or generosity of your judgment, but for the reason that it is peculiarly important, in view of the questions which have heretofore surrounded the employment of colored troops in the armies of the United States, to give our enemies (foreign and domestic) as little ground as possible for alleging any violation of the laws and usages of civilized warfare as a palliation for these atrocities which are threatened against the men and officers of commands similar to your own. If, as is threatened by the rebel Congress, this war has eventually to degenerate into a barbarous and savage conflict, softened by none of the amenities and rights established by the wisdom and civilization of the world through successive centuries of struggle, it is of the first moment that the infamy of this deterioration should rest exclusively and without excuse upon the rebel Government. It will therefore be necessary for you to exercise the utmost strictness in insisting upon compliance with the instructions herewith sent, and you will avoid any devastation which does not strike immediately at the resources or material of the armed insurrection which we are now engaged in the task of suppressing.

All fugitives who come within our lines you will receive, welcome, and protect. Such of them as are able-bodied men you will at once enroll and arm as soldiers. You will take all horses and mules available for transportation to the enemy; also all cattle and other food which can be of service to our forces. As the rebel Government has laid all grain and produce under conscription, to be taken at will for the use of its armed adherents, you will be justified in destroying all stores of this kind which you shall not be able to remove; but the destruction of crops in the ground, which may not be fit for use until the rebellion is over, or which may when ripe be of service to the forces of our Government occupying the enemy's country, you will not engage in without mature consideration. This right of war, though unquestionable in certain extreme cases, is not to be slightly used, and if wantonly used might fall under that part of the instructions which prohibits devastation. All household furniture, libraries, churches, and hospitals you will of course spare.

That the wickedness and folly of the enemy may soon place us in a position where the immutable laws of self-defense and the stern necessity of retaliation will not only justify but enjoin every conceivable species of injury is only to be too clearly apprehended; but until such time shall have arrived, and until the proof, not merely of declarations or resolves but of acts, is unmistakable, it will be both right and wise to hold the troops under your command to the very strictest interpretation of the laws and usages of civilized warfare.

Expressing the highest confidence in your courage, skill, humanity, and discretion, I have the honor to be, colonel, very respectfully yours,

D. HUNTER, Major-General, Commanding.

1,097 posted on 07/02/2003 2:03:38 AM PDT by nolu chan
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