If Secession Was Illegal - then How Come...?

The Patriotist ^ | 2003 | Al Benson, Jr.

[Gianni]

Everything has an excuse and anything that gets in the way of their preconceived view of reality must either be wrong or has to be molded, bent, and distorted to bring it in line.

Wierd, ain't it? I would add that everything eventually ends in an appeal to force or consensus of opinion. Difficult for a rational person to swallow, save at gunpoint.

[mdmathis6]

Well, I don't know if it was erroneous or not, though I'll own up to my having an opinion on the subject. Alternate history speculation is useful some-times, much like fine sieve to help glean out pearls of wisdom from an other wise static dry view of settled history. History certainly has some strange turns in it that if we look at what MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED, we find our-selves mentally sweating and going..."PHEWWWW, I'm glad WAR X turned out the way it did", or "Too Bad the first Marathon runner made it, I hate the fact we now have it in the Olympics"...(just trying to be humorous here) or "Too bad Helen wasn't ugly and the first liberated dyke, I liked the Trojans...a noble race...they would have kept Rome from becoming little more than that small village on the Tiber....."

[justshutupandtakeit]

Yes please re-read and remember that GOPcrapitalist defines "union" as "anything I want it to be." Just like a "state" he defines as "anything I want it to be."

Anyone who buys that bogus argument really can't be reasoned with. And maybe they can explain what "their union" meant to Jefferson. Or how these "states" which don't even exist can be kept in a "union" which they have not joined. Or why one should assume that J was referring to anything other than the slight possibility that Congress might allow these territories to form states legally outside the United States of America or that it might allow states to legally seperate from the Union they might have joined. None of these refutes my claim that J. abhored the concept of secession or disUnion though to the less discerning and astute they could complicate the thinking necessary to determine the truth.

Trying to twist J's words to fit his wish is, of course, typical of those attempting to re-write history. But the fact remains that J. never advocated destruction of the Union through unilateral state actions. Hypothetical events possible with the blessings of Congress are something totally different. Of course, he ignores the words of the Constitution I quoted to refute his absurd claims. So re-read those while you are at it.

Oh, don't worry GOPcrapitalist, you have the Obtuse Idiocy Award wrapped up for the next century never in my wildest dreams could I dislodge it from your grasp barring massive brain injury. It can sit on the shelf next to your "I Will Lie for Crumbs" sign and the "1st Prize" from the Misinformation, Disinformation and Preservation of Falsehoods Society of the South.

[GOPcapitalist]

I would add that everything eventually ends in an appeal to force or consensus of opinion

But of course! Force and opinion are their two favorite arguments.

But it always starts out with a gratuitous assertion on their part which they presume to be true, valid, and substantiated simply by virtue of having been stated, of course, by them. They seem to think that burdens of proof do not apply where they are concerned and reply to any request of substantiation by acting as if doing so is below them. After this initial failure, it becomes timely for us to post contrary proof of their original claim anyway, to which they respond with absurd semantical games of denial and excuse making. The proper response there is to remove the cover of words under which they are hiding, and all of a sudden the tune changes. Now, they tell us, we are wrong ad baculum for losing the war and ad populum by way of the majority consensus of uneducated dupes like themselves and those that they fool.

[GOPcapitalist]

Yes please re-read and remember that GOPcrapitalist defines "union" as "anything I want it to be." Just like a "state" he defines as "anything I want it to be." Anyone who buys that bogus argument really can't be reasoned with.

Pot, kettle...meet black. He will probably inform you that war is peace, night is day, and it all depends upon what the meaning of "is" is.

[Grand Old Partisan]

"[neo-Confederate]great concern over this formality does not extend to those attempting to destroy the Union"

Again, fabulous!

[mac_truck]

Oh, don't worry GOPcrapitalist, you have the Obtuse Idiocy Award wrapped up for the next century never in my wildest dreams could I dislodge it from your grasp barring massive brain injury. It can sit on the shelf next to your "I Will Lie for Crumbs" sign and the "1st Prize" from the Misinformation, Disinformation and Preservation of Falsehoods Society of the South.

Classic! Well said...

[GOPcapitalist]

It wasn't the states that put down the rebellion. It was the people.

Yawn. Where do you keep getting all of this intellectually light weight tripe, Walt?

"It is obvious that, on general principles of law and reason, there exists no such thing as a government created by, or resting upon, any consent, compact, or agreement of "the people of the United States" with each other; that the only visible, tangible, responsible government that exists, is that of a few individuals only, who act in concert, and call themselves by the several names of senators, representatives, presidents, judges, marshals, treasurers, collectors, generals, colonels, captains, etc., etc." - Lysander Spooner, 1870

[justshutupandtakeit]

Quite the contrary, I would never take over your stock-in-trade.

No thread would be the same without you being able to claim "rebellion is NOT Treason", "perpetual does NOT mean eternal", "the South did NOT fight to maintain slavery", without the D.S.s having access to lies beyond number their comments might actually be short and to the point.

Couldn't have that.

[justshutupandtakeit]

And coming from one who has the disdain of such luminaries as Aurelius, GOPcrapitalist, and 4ConservativeJustices, too.

[justshutupandtakeit]

Feel free to borrow and repeat as often as you like. :^)

[GOPcapitalist]

No thread would be the same without you being able to claim "rebellion is NOT Treason", "perpetual does NOT mean eternal", "the South did NOT fight to maintain slavery", without the D.S.s having access to lies beyond number their comments might actually be short and to the point.

I don't believe I have ever made any of the statements you attribute to me and at least the second two appear to be scarecrows of your own design. For the first, I do generally agree with it though it is a severe oversimplification of the argument. Treason as defined by certain governments is a distinct animal from treason as defined under common law. The former is often nothing more than an excuse for an unjust state to prosecute those who object to its abuses and violations of liberty or, in some cases, simply oppose an official position or policy of the state. This is almost always an illegitimate application of the treason principle. The latter is not and is therefore a legitimately punishable offense.

[GOPcapitalist]

And coming from one who has the disdain of such luminaries as Aurelius, GOPcrapitalist, and 4ConservativeJustices, too.

More amusement, actually. You and your fellow Wlat Brigadiers are one of the funniest freak shows running on FR these days.

[GOPcapitalist]

Feel free to borrow and repeat as often as you like.

It's probably good that you give him consent to use your words before he assumes it for himself. Mac's a known plagiarist, you know.

[Grand Old Partisan]

"And coming from one who has the disdain of such luminaries as Aurelius, GOPcrapitalist, and 4ConservativeJustices, too."

I don't just have their disdain, I EARNED it.

[Gianni]

But it always starts out with a gratuitous assertion on their part which they presume to be true, valid, and substantiated simply by virtue of having been stated, of course, by them.

Once you accept everything that they say as axiomatic, the rest is crystal clear. absurd semantical games of denial

Yes, well we know that sometimes the word states means provinces, territories, fiefdoms, yadda yadda. A simple case of man perverting language to fit his agenda.

[justshutupandtakeit]

Treason as defined by the United States constitution is the only definition I have any regard for.

I find it particularly amusing for you to pretend that the Jefferson quote has any real significance when you know very well that The Great Man himself brought Burr to trial THREE times for Treason when he attempted to do what you claim J. was claiming would be just fine- split the Western territory away from the United States.

Either J. was a contemptible hypocrit for writing those words and then persecuting Burr OR he was just blowing smoke without significance. Which do you think it was?

[GOPcapitalist]

Treason as defined by the United States constitution is the only definition I have any regard for.

Fair enough, as under a strictly constructed original intent interpretation of that clause, it was improper to accuse the south of that crime.

I find it particularly amusing for you to pretend that the Jefferson quote has any real significance

The only significance I have noted it to possess in this debate is that it contradicts your allegation that Jefferson opposed any notion of splitting the union.

when you know very well that The Great Man himself brought Burr to trial THREE times for Treason when he attempted to do what you claim J. was claiming would be just fine

What Jefferson thought of Burr is wholly irrelevant to this discussion and does not change the fact that he wrote what he did.

[Grand Old Partisan]

"[Jefferson] himself brought Burr to trial THREE times for Treason when he attempted to do what you claim J. was claiming would be just fine- split the Western territory away from the United States."

You're on fire!

[GOPcapitalist]

Once you accept everything that they say as axiomatic, the rest is crystal clear.

Precisely. It is the old "Lincoln is perfect therefore what his critics say is wrong, and since his critics are all wrong he must be perfect" game that they play. It's wholly circular onto itself, but accept any one point in the circle and you can navigate to all of the others.