Notre Dame priest: Creationism debate unique to U.S.

The Bozeman Daily Chronicle ^ | 2003-05-11 | Walt Williams

[Junior]

Despite movements across the nation to teach creationism in public schools, a science historian said Monday that Christians haven't always used a literal interpretation of the Bible to explain the world's origins.

"For them, the Bible is mostly to teach a religious lesson," said Ernan McMullin of the earliest Christian scholars.

McMullin spoke to a crowd of about 60 people at Montana State University on "Evolution as a Christian theme."

McMullin, a professor at the University of Notre Dame and a Catholic priest, is recognized one of the world's leading science historians and philosophers, according to MSU.

He has written about Galileo, Issac Newton, the concept of matter and, of course, evolution.

It's a subject has been hotly debated ever since Charles Darwin first published "On the Origins of Species" in 1859.

Christian fundamentalists have long pushed the nation's public schools to teach creationism as an alternative, which in its strictest form claims that the world was created in six days, as stated in the Bible's Old Testament Book of Genesis.

But McMullin said creationism largely is an American phenomenon. Other countries simply don't have major creationist movements, leading him to ask: "What makes it in the U.S. ... such an issue (over) evolution and Christian belief?"

The answer probably lies in the nation's history, with the settlement by religious groups, he said. Also, public education and religion are more intertwined here than other countries.

McMullin discussed how Christians have tried to explain their origins over the past 2,000 years, using several examples to show that many viewed Genesis as more of a religious lesson than an exact record of what happened.

It wasn't until the Protestant Reformation of the 16th Century that Genesis started to be taken literally. Then theologians started using nature - and its many complexities - as proof of creation.

Charles Darwin spoiled that through his theory of natural selection, and the battle lines have been drawn ever since.

"It replaced an older view that had sounded like a strong argument for the existence of God," McMullin said.

[Last Visible Dog]

I see this has degraded to the "picking of the nits"

My work is done here.

[Last Visible Dog]

Be wary music_code, you are in among a pack of disrupters (they never present positions of their own – they just sit on the sidelines sniping at those that do present positions).

[general_re]

Ah, so it's "picking nits" to note, yet again, that you can't support something you've rather carelessly tossed off.

Whatever. As you say, your work is done here, and not a moment too soon - you ran out of feet to shoot some time ago...

[Last Visible Dog]

Monty Python's Argument Clinic


M = Man looking for an argument
A = Arguer


A: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
M: Oh, just the five minutes.
A: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not.
A: Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.
M: No you did not.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't.
A: Did.
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
A: Yes it is.
M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
A: No it isn't.
M: It is!
A: It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A: I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A: No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A: Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A: No it isn't.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.

(short pause)

A: No it isn't.
M: It is.
A: Not at all.
M: Now look.
A: (Rings bell) Good Morning.
M: What?
A: That's it. Good morning.
M: I was just getting interested.
A: Sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: That was never five minutes!
A: I'm afraid it was.
M: It wasn't.

Pause

A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.

[jwalsh07]

You should read some physics journals.

I don't have time, my spare time goes toward playing negative and psoitive golf and oddly enough it results in an ever increasing score.

By the way, are you Doctor Stochastic or the anti-Dr Stochastic?

[longshadow]

Secret words, e.g.: "exect alluting"

Secret definitions.

Secret "translations."

Nouns becoming adverbs.

Tormentors tormenting.

Secret "victories."

Then, there was Thorazine.

[Aric2000]

Are you done going around in circles, trying to convince us that Evolution means cosmological evolution?

Oh thank you, thank you, thank you, your stamina and stupidity was a thing to behold, thank you for such a bizarre show.

I wouldn't have been more convinced of your arrogance and stupidity otherwise.

[Aric2000]

Thank you Mr. Teacher,

But I don't think that I was taking a class from you.

I listen to actual scientists with scientific evidence, or at least people with some sort of scientifically verifiable evidence to back them up.

All I get are "facts" from your bible, where are your other sources for this conclusion that you've drawn.

Oh, that's right, that's all the evidence that you need isn't it.

Boy, I would love to be your doctor, no second opinion necessary.

Hey I'm right, you need this operation, honest, you have faith in me, right?

[general_re]

Never underestimate the power of converse accident, young Jedi...

[Last Visible Dog]

I wouldn't have been more convinced of your arrogance and stupidity otherwise.

If insults were considered intellectual, you would be considered a very intelligent man. They aren’t and you aren’t. You are just an annoying pest disrupter. What do you expect from someone that considers themselves a “Left Wing Republican” - not the sharpest knife in the drawer – clearly nobody explained to you what “Left Wing” means

Let us know if you ever grow balls are able to enter into a debate rather than sniping from the sidelines like child.

[PatrickHenry]

PLACEMARKER

[Last Visible Dog]

Let us know if you ever grow balls are able to enter into a debate rather than sniping from the sidelines like child.

We don't want to give Aric2000 any more ammunition for his childish sniping. Make that:

Aric2000, let us know if you ever grow balls and are able to enter into a debate rather than sniping from the sidelines like Al Gore on crack (I don’t want to insult children)

[Jorge]

Is a belief a truth or a lie? Doesn't there have to be some form of proof in order to have a truth or a lie?

Yes, and ultimately the claims of the Bible regarding Christ, salvation, Heaven and Hell will either be proven to be true, or proven to be a lie.

And if the Gospel of Christ proves to be true, it will at that time be too late for those who have disregarded it to change their minds, or their destiny.

[general_re]

You know how that sort of thing drives the stalkers nuts - they can see the nasty message directed at them, hidden in the tiny spaces between the pixels on the screen. Just leave them alone, willya?

[PatrickHenry]

You know how that sort of thing drives the stalkers nuts - they can see the nasty message directed at them, hidden in the tiny spaces ...

The stalkers have lately taken to changing their colors. We at Darwin Central must adapt, and use the latest technology.

[PatrickHenry]

DARWIN CENTRAL is watching you!

[balrog666]

Hey, has the sh!t-for-brains jerk actually left? Let's see if he answers to the call...

[Aric2000]

Placemarker for me

[Aric2000]

Big brass cahunas, LVD skipping placemarker

[Aric2000]

#1000!!!! YES!!!