Notre Dame priest: Creationism debate unique to U.S.

The Bozeman Daily Chronicle ^ | 2003-05-11 | Walt Williams

[Junior]

Despite movements across the nation to teach creationism in public schools, a science historian said Monday that Christians haven't always used a literal interpretation of the Bible to explain the world's origins.

"For them, the Bible is mostly to teach a religious lesson," said Ernan McMullin of the earliest Christian scholars.

McMullin spoke to a crowd of about 60 people at Montana State University on "Evolution as a Christian theme."

McMullin, a professor at the University of Notre Dame and a Catholic priest, is recognized one of the world's leading science historians and philosophers, according to MSU.

He has written about Galileo, Issac Newton, the concept of matter and, of course, evolution.

It's a subject has been hotly debated ever since Charles Darwin first published "On the Origins of Species" in 1859.

Christian fundamentalists have long pushed the nation's public schools to teach creationism as an alternative, which in its strictest form claims that the world was created in six days, as stated in the Bible's Old Testament Book of Genesis.

But McMullin said creationism largely is an American phenomenon. Other countries simply don't have major creationist movements, leading him to ask: "What makes it in the U.S. ... such an issue (over) evolution and Christian belief?"

The answer probably lies in the nation's history, with the settlement by religious groups, he said. Also, public education and religion are more intertwined here than other countries.

McMullin discussed how Christians have tried to explain their origins over the past 2,000 years, using several examples to show that many viewed Genesis as more of a religious lesson than an exact record of what happened.

It wasn't until the Protestant Reformation of the 16th Century that Genesis started to be taken literally. Then theologians started using nature - and its many complexities - as proof of creation.

Charles Darwin spoiled that through his theory of natural selection, and the battle lines have been drawn ever since.

"It replaced an older view that had sounded like a strong argument for the existence of God," McMullin said.

[Aric2000]

ID=Creationism, so of course you believe in it.

Good grief, like it's some sort of incredible moment for you or something, to come to that realization.

[Dimensio]

I've seen the tract in question, "Big Daddy". In it, a charichature of a professor teaches a total strawman of evolution a "brainwashed" class, but one brave Christian proves that evolution is false by appealing to various well-debunked creationist canards and going on an irrelevant tangent regarding gluons.

[whattajoke]

LOL, I posted that to f.christian a few days ago and he liked it so much he co-opted it.

at the least, maybe he does have a sense of humor.

[Aric2000]

Yeah, I feel sorry for your kids too, I really do.

[Dimensio]

Please note that theism is not Christianity. One can be a theist without being a Christian, thus "theistic evolutionist" is not a contradiction.

[whattajoke]

My guess is that you are simply baiting here. No one truly believes "those are the only true options on the table."

Or has it come to that. The limited fundy worldview has become so myopic that that's what they (you) truly believe?

(Almost) entire countries are simply no longer viable.

Amazing, the gall, the hubris, the ego. Simply amazing.

[f.Christian]

Even the amish let their kids out on weekends to sow their oats --- see another world ... not you dictator ?

[Aric2000]

THat reminds me of one of those Indiana Jones movies.

He CHOSE, unwisely.

LOL, give me a break.

If you need to take the bible literally for it to mean something to you, well, that's your problem, but I know many christians that take the New Testament literally, and look at the old testament in a whole other light.

Before Christ, not to be taken too literally, new testament, taken literally.

Pretty easy if you ask me, but then again, I am NOT a christian, so it's easy for me to say.

And Yes, I have chosen wisely, for myself, I have never claimed that my choice is the best one for you as well.

To do so, would be arrogant in the extreme.

[Aric2000]

LOL, did I upset you FC?

Sorry about that, and actually, my wife and daughters are right now at a playdate with other homeschoolers, and having LOTS of fun I might add.

Lock up my children? Be a dictator? I don't think so, I believe in critical thinking skills, not some little automaton that will repeat whatever I tell them to think.

Poor FC, if I don't teach my children to be good little christians, I must be abusing them or something, right?

LOL, you can be awfully scary sometimes.

[PatrickHenry]

I've seen the tract in question, "Big Daddy". In it, a charichature of a professor teaches a total strawman of evolution a "brainwashed" class, but one brave Christian proves that evolution is false by appealing to various well-debunked creationist canards and going on an irrelevant tangent regarding gluons.

The only source of the "evolution as cosmology" doctrine: Big Daddy.

[Stultis]

That’s what you get for mind reading. You are not even close. Biology as we know it now is a piece in the puzzle that is cosmology. You put the word cosmology in quotes so I am guessing you do not fully understand its meaning

It seems that you are the one, despite your voluminous comments on the subject, that doesn't really understand what "cosmology" means. The term refers to the evolution of the universe. It has not a thing to do with biology. It has to do with big bang theories and the like. Your association of "Orthodox Darwinists" with this is absurd.

Darwinism is usually understood to refer to stressing the significance of natural selection as a mechanism of biological evolution. An extreme "Darwinist" (of which there are few if any left) would be one who claimed that natural selection was virtually the sole mechanism of biological evolution.

So what does "darwinism" (natural selection) have to do with the evolution of the cosmos? Also, your suggestion that the field is characterized by stultifying dogmatism is, well, completely crazy. I don't follow the subject particularly, but, Good Lord, you've got the standard big bang theory, several alternative theories that have been considered at various times, as well as the "inflationary" versions of big bang theory, of which there seem to be something like 57 varieties at any given time.

I think you need to figure out what you are talking about, and maybe ask a few questions or define a few terms here and there.

[whattajoke]

I've just searched for anything (no matter how absurd) supporting his idea, and came up with nothing, zip, zilch, nada, zero.

Interesting to note though, that some guy has decided to start an "Evolution is dead" forum and happens to have one thread devoted to "Cosmology." Please note the fascinating ideas he's put forth, and the amazing nobel worthy insights that follow.

http://www.evolutionisdead.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=6

the Silence is deafening.

[f.Christian]

The horrors of what people go through on time share tortures (( brainwashing -- indoctrinations )) is nothing compared to what your cult is doing to other people's children --- nazis (( overlord -- peer pressure )) !

You have yours in homestart (( overlords jr )) !

[f.Christian]

I need a poster that I can point out to my children as mentally unbalanced and in need of medication, so I need you to stick around.

That is so ... sovietish --- of you !

[jwalsh07]

I take it, then that you have a means of falsifying Last Thursdayism?

You can take it any way you please Dimensio, it doesn't change the fact neither you nor anyone else has a working hypothesis for creation of the Universe. You take it on faith taht it just happened like last next Thursday will.

Nothing to be ashamed of being a man of faith.

[Aric2000]

Oh come now, you can't be a Christian and not take the bible literally, or else you're not a proper Christian.

Sorry, I find that logic so absurd and laughable that I just have to see how it looks written down.

[f.Christian]

You are doing a really good job of making atheist evolutionists look really bad !

[Aric2000]

Geez, why can't you people make a proper about page?

I really want to know who and what you are when I see a post, darnit all anyway.

There are some interesting theories about the beginning of the universe, and some are just plain absurd, but they are sure fun to think about.

Faith can be a good thing, and sometimes a dangerous thing, all depends on who you're putting your faith in.

[f.Christian]

Aren't your cult members trying to pull (( clue )) your chain !