Posted on 05/11/2003 4:38:14 PM PDT by Junior
Despite movements across the nation to teach creationism in public schools, a science historian said Monday that Christians haven't always used a literal interpretation of the Bible to explain the world's origins.
"For them, the Bible is mostly to teach a religious lesson," said Ernan McMullin of the earliest Christian scholars.
McMullin spoke to a crowd of about 60 people at Montana State University on "Evolution as a Christian theme."
McMullin, a professor at the University of Notre Dame and a Catholic priest, is recognized one of the world's leading science historians and philosophers, according to MSU.
He has written about Galileo, Issac Newton, the concept of matter and, of course, evolution.
It's a subject has been hotly debated ever since Charles Darwin first published "On the Origins of Species" in 1859.
Christian fundamentalists have long pushed the nation's public schools to teach creationism as an alternative, which in its strictest form claims that the world was created in six days, as stated in the Bible's Old Testament Book of Genesis.
But McMullin said creationism largely is an American phenomenon. Other countries simply don't have major creationist movements, leading him to ask: "What makes it in the U.S. ... such an issue (over) evolution and Christian belief?"
The answer probably lies in the nation's history, with the settlement by religious groups, he said. Also, public education and religion are more intertwined here than other countries.
McMullin discussed how Christians have tried to explain their origins over the past 2,000 years, using several examples to show that many viewed Genesis as more of a religious lesson than an exact record of what happened.
It wasn't until the Protestant Reformation of the 16th Century that Genesis started to be taken literally. Then theologians started using nature - and its many complexities - as proof of creation.
Charles Darwin spoiled that through his theory of natural selection, and the battle lines have been drawn ever since.
"It replaced an older view that had sounded like a strong argument for the existence of God," McMullin said.
My point is that if they are not scientific, lets not include them in science class.
I feel that the debate between the different religious views, while interesting, is something that might be over the top for most high-school students. I think a social-studies elective is most appropriate.
I suspected that was what you were talking about from the very beginning. But it wasn't a faked experiment, and more importantly, it wasn't Darwin who took the photo. You said that Darwin faked his data. You have yet to recant. So I think I understand you quite well, and yes, I consign you to babbling creationoid oblivion.
what the hell is the “ID world” (speaking of “what the hell”) Orthodox Darwinists believe that Darwinist Evolution is complete and scientifically proves the origin of the universe. Most Orthodox Darwinists believe evolution as a cosmological theory can be proven by science.
scientific theory zealots
Your idea about presenting all the "myths" and letting 14 year olds think for themselves is oh-so-admirable. But its a bunch of hooey. That would be more suited for creative writing class, not biology.
Why would you teach cosmology is biology? I personally think it is wrong to teach theory as fact.
Does "Last Thusdayism" get equal time? What about Timmy's idea that he came up with after eating the paste that says, "Timmy created the universe in a dream when Timmy was 5?" Does that get equal time.
I have no idea what you are talking about. This makes no sense.
Here's a novel idea: Let the scientists stick to science and teach biology as we currently KNOW to be true.
Then they must stop teaching evolution as cosmology because it is NOT KNOWN to be true.
It's not that difficult.
Is Lying difficult?
Let the religionists continue to preach their ideas at church. End of story.
It may be the end of your thought process but it is far from the end of story. You assume all theories of cosmology other than evolution are religion - you are wrong.
Any kid who is confronted with the ridiculously obvious truths behind the scientific ideas will rightly place his religious myth where it belongs: in the "nice story" bin.
Only someone that has no clue what they are talking about would put “ridiculously obvious truth” in a debate on cosmology. HINT: there are no “ridiculously obvious truths” related to the origin of the universe. Statements like that make you sound like a zealot who is more interesting in “winning” and defending their beliefs than searching for knowledge.
Sheesh.
That is one point your got right.
I just couldn't pass this up. Long read, but I just had to post it...
1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the “things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” (Hebrews 11:3)
2. Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.
3. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space: “He...hangs the earth upon nothing” (Job 26:7).
4. The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: “It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth” (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world (see Proverbs 3:6).
5. God told Job in 1500 B.C.: “Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?” (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement—that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn’t discover this until 1864 when “British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing” (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).
6. Job 38:19 asks, “Where is the way where light dwells?” Modern man has only recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a “way,” traveling at 186,000 miles per second.
7. Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: “When the morning stars sang together...”
8. “Most cosmologists (scientists who study the structures and evolution of the universe) agree that the Genesis account of creation, in imagining an initial void, may be uncannily close to the truth” (Time, Dec. 1976).
9. Solomon described a “cycle” of air currents two thousand years before scientists “discovered” them. “The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits” (Ecclesiastes 1:6).
10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: “In the beginning [time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . . And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters.” The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe
11. The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body’s mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were “bled,” and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood.”
12. All things were made by Him (see John 1:3), including dinosaurs. Why then did the dinosaur disappear? The answer may be in Job 40:15–24. In this passage, God speaks about a great creature called “behemoth.” Some commentators think this was a hippopotamus. However, the hippo’s tail isn’t like a large tree, but a small twig. Following are the characteristics of this huge animal: It was the largest of all the creatures God made; was plant-eating (herbivorous); had its strength in its hips and a tail like a large tree. It had very strong bones, lived among the trees, drank massive amounts of water, and was not disturbed by a raging river. He appears impervious to attack because his nose could pierce through snares, but Scripture says, “He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.” In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.
13. Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: “And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean” (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under “running water.”
14. Luke 17:34–36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.
15. “During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to ‘bad air’ or ‘evil spirits.’ However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: ‘The laws against leprosy in Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation’ (A History of Medicine).” Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture, how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the world’s religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, “Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence.”
-"The Evidence Bible (Bridge-Logos Publishers).
Like I said, a bit long, but I thought it was a good read
It takes wisdom to spot the parables. Wisdom is obtained by studying the Word almost daily.
He didn't seem to think manna in the desert was a parable, or did He? Or that Melchizidek was merely a symbol.
Melchi-King Zidek-Just. King of the Just-Jesus.
Or that there was no exodus. Or that the water from the rock was merely a figure, an allegory, a metaphor. Or Sodom and Gomorrah wouldn't really be judged on that day because they were merely fictitious to teach a spiritual lesson.
Wisdom will show where the parables are. God is the God of those with common sense. Combine common sense observation with wisdom and parables and a pretty clear picture can be derived from the Word. It does take years of study though. He didn't make the mysteries known to the lazy.
Are there some Bishop Ussher - "the earth was created in 4004 BC" - afficianados around these parts?
Again, yes, crocodiles were around, but THEY ARE NOT AND WERE NOT "dinosaurs" in any sense at all. Dinosaurs, although their status within taxonomical schemes has changed, have ALWAYS represented a distinct and well defined group of organisms. Crocodiles are NOT dinosaurs. Neither were many other large reptiles that existed at the time, such as plesiosaurs. Neither were many reptiles that preceeded them, such as Dimetrodon (that one with the sail on it's back, which was actually on the line leading to mammals).
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