[general_re]

I think we're mostly on the same page here - I'm just trying to figure out how you would define "design" such that a beehive is designed, and I'm not having much luck with anything other than the design of the beehive being a one-off process, where the bees are designed, and the beehive is therefore designed as a part of bee behavior. But as I was getting at earlier, I don't think that's at all helpful, useful, or logically tenable...

[PatrickHenry]

Do you plan to give us the answers to each of your ten objects? Perhaps "answers" isn't the right word. At least identify the objects for us, so we can consider Diamond's conclusions and then debate them. And when you identify the objects, we should probably have an updated index.

[PatrickHenry]

Oh, with respect to my definitions, it occurs to me that the essence of ID seems to mean something that could not possibly be the result of natural processes alone. I suppose that leaves out the clam shell and the pile of dog poop, as well as behives and terminte mounds. But I suppose the debate will rage over such objects.

[Diamond]

I just this moment got news that my dear mother is now conscious for the first time in many days (which is more than I can say for myself at the moment) so I just have a minute here. Let me say that I appreciate your observations and I agree with many of them.

Let me say this, general; if you looked at the mere physical structure of a floppy disk with a computer program on it, would that not also a be a one-off process? The magnetism, for example, is not intelligent in the sense that it is making choices about anything, yet the program has obviously been caused by an intelligent agent.

The same is true with your thermostat. The physical processes involved do not themselves have intelligence, but are simply used by an intelligent agent to perform a function.

Regarding the bees, we really do not know exactly how they do the absolutely amazing things that they do. I thing we probably assume that they are hard-wired or programmed in some way. But one of the results of their activity is Architecture, and of a very, very efficient type at that. On of the reasons that I labeled beeswax as indicative of design is that architecture is the product of an intelligent agent; it cannot be reduced to the random forces of physics and chemistry. The properties and functions of the beehive certainly seem to bear the hallmarks of design of the dictionary defintion, and would certainly qualify as specifications if done by human beings; namely,

• To plan out in systematic, usually graphic form: design a building; design a computer program.
• To create or contrive for a particular purpose or effect: a game designed to appeal to all ages.
• To have as a goal or purpose; intend.
• To create or execute in an artistic or highly skilled manner.

The bees may be the the floppy disk or the thermostat of the process in the sense that they may not be conscious of the plan that they are executing, but the beeswax itself as an artifact bears the hallmarks of design.

Patrick, the reason I asked about your nature/intelligence distinction is that certain parts of nature exhibit certain levels of intelligence. One of the hallmarks of intelligence is discrimination. For example, a rat traversing and learning a maze is demonstrating intelligence in that it is choosing and discriminating between this and that; between one route and another, between one possiblity, ruling out others, to reach it's goal of whatever freedom or food morsel it wants.

Cordially,

[js1138]

I'm not having much luck with anything other than the design of the beehive being a one-off process, where the bees are designed, and the beehive is therefore designed as a part of bee behavior. But as I was getting at earlier, I don't think that's at all helpful, useful, or logically tenable...

tenable placemarker.

Behives result from running a rather simple iterative program. Same with ant mounds. The complex appearance has a simple underlying cause. Phenomena that look positively Wolframian. (flame suit on)