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To: the_doc
But you can't see what I see, because you don't want to see what I see.

Another way to phrase that:
Others see what exists; you "see" whatever you want to see.

51 posted on 03/04/2003 7:01:20 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas)
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To: PatrickHenry; BMCDA; general_re; Diamond; CCWoody; Nebullis; cornelis; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Others see what exists; you "see" whatever you want to see.

You are correct insofar as you are just pointing out that people believe only what they want to believe. This is a patently obvious truth of human nature. (It is one of the undergirding principles of the historic Protestant theology of Calvinism. [Like the vast majority of our nation's founders, the real Patrick Henry was a Calvinist--as I am, of course.])

Having agreed with you that people believe only what they want to believe, let me point out that this comment does not enhance your case at all (despite the fact that you evidently intended your remark as a disparagement of mine).

Let me show you why I say that (below).

***

Notice, first of all, that you used the word see in two different ways. You said "Others see what exists." Next, you put the word see in quotation marks, saying "You 'see' whatever you want to see."

But now, notice that you have implied in your first statement that a Creator does not exist. Ah, but but you are merely presupposing that a Creator who cannot be seen rather directly with the eyes does not exist. (This is intellectually untenable inasmuch as the Creator of the material world was obviously not material. Besides, as you surely realize at some level of your soul, the atheist can't possibly know what he asserts--i.e., that there is no God!--because only God could have that kind of knowledge. So, I will insist that you leave off implying that God does not exist. I want you to be more reasonable.)

Anyway, as I suggested in my earlier post, I see everything which you see in nature. To use your language, I do see "what exists." But if I am correct about the existence of the Creator (and of course, I am [grin]), then you are the one who doesn't fully see what exists.

You will notice that I am using the word see in the same dual way you were using it. As we both realize, there are two kinds of seeing. The first kind of seeing is sensory. The second kind of seeing is an apprehension which may go beyond the purely sensory level; this kind of seeing involves the understanding of things (including the implications of sensory data!).

An example of this latter type of seeing is "Oh, I see what you are saying now." What we mean by such a statement is actually "I understand and accept the truth which you were presenting."

That brings us back to the topic of the thread. Some of us see things which you cannot see about the existence of the Creator, the Designer. Some of us can SEE it QUITE EASILY.

The whole thing is wonderfully strange, IMHO. And if you will pardon a little teasing, those of us who do regard the fact of the Creator's existence as transcendentally obvious are inclined to regard you as mentally defective.

In short, the fact that you and I both understand and accept only what we want to understand and accept is ultimately why I believe in a Creator and you don't. I see everything which you can see, but I can see things which exist beyond your willingness to understand and accept the truths of the Creation..

In short, I say there is no weakness in me. I would have to say that I am just more reasonable than you are. (This is what I actually meant when I suggested that you are mentally defective [grin again].)

***

All of this stuff is covered in Romans 1:18-32.

53 posted on 03/04/2003 8:44:53 PM PST by the_doc
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To: PatrickHenry; BMCDA; general_re; Diamond; CCWoody; Nebullis; cornelis; OrthodoxPresbyterian
I probably ought to add that the Calvinistic position explains the whole matter in a much more ominous way than you have recognized.

As a consistent Calvinist, I feel compelled to point out that I regard you as unreasonable, as wickedly biased against truths which I frankly do find to be transcendentally obvious.

I am not scoffing at you. The fact is, I used to be very much like you. I was probably as bright as you are, and I was essentially just as smug as you are. As a result, I couldn't see what I see now.

According to the theology of the Book of Romans, you were born with this blinding bias. The fact is, you obviously hate your own Creator. And as a consistent Calvinist, I would urge you to consider the possibility, at least, that He hates you (Matthew 23:33).

55 posted on 03/04/2003 9:00:35 PM PST by the_doc
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