[general_re]

Is that design? No more than a bird nest. Is a bird nest an example of design?

Oddly, I thought about posting a bird's nest, but couldn't locate a good image of what I wanted - there are some South American birds that build really spectacularly complicated nests.

Anyway, whether it fits the notion of "design" or not, it's pretty clearly not intelligently designed, given what we know about bees. Which leads to the question of whether or not "mindless" forces can produce emergent structures in the universe that appear to be designed, much as "mindless" bees can produce emergent structures that appear to be designed.

Interesting. Hopefully we'll get a nice counterpoint from some of FR's resident ID proponents, since you're asking questions that I really can't answer from an ID perspective ;)

[CobaltBlue]

>>Anyway, whether it fits the notion of "design" or not, it's pretty clearly not intelligently designed, given what we know about bees. <<

Given the complexity with which bees communicate (see, e.g., the "waggle dance"), I am unwilling to concede that intelligence isn't involved in their structure building.

However, given the absolute uniformity of the various elements of their structures, I will easily concede that there is no creativity involved.

Human beings put a great deal of emphasis on creativity, and bees are clearly rigid in their behaviors, but does that necessarily mean that they are not intelligent?

I concede that trees and other plant life are not intelligent, nor are rocks, but bee social behavior is so incredibly complex, and there are feedback mechanisms involved. Feedback = intelligence because there is choice, and a method of choosing.