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To: exmarine
When you finally see and understand that God is the source or absolute morals and rights, only then will you be able to argue coherently on this topic.

If God cannot declare as moral an immoral act, then morality must be a thing that exists independently of God. I and others have repeatedly tried to make this point, but I suspect we'd have better luck stapling jello to the wall.

If the matter of the existence of God was unequivocally put to rest tomorrow, my life would be affected not at all. I would continue to live in the exact same way. How about you?

The DoI says that rights are endowed by a "Creator." Why are you so sure that the Creator mentioned is the one worshipped by you? It is sufficient that individuals have rights as a function of their existence. If you wish to label that phenomenon God, feel free.

6,105 posted on 01/28/2003 10:06:11 AM PST by Condorman (Fear of death is the beginning of slavery.)
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To: Condorman
If God cannot declare as moral an immoral act, then morality must be a thing that exists independently of God. I and others have repeatedly tried to make this point, but I suspect we'd have better luck stapling jello to the wall.

False proposition, therefore a false conclusion. Morals are not "declared," but rather flow directly from God's character and person. God cannot go against His own character as God is immutable. So, if you want to make up your own false god, then your proposition may have some value, but since the Christian God is immutable and morals are the outflow of His character, your argument falls.

If the matter of the existence of God was unequivocally put to rest tomorrow, my life would be affected not at all. I would continue to live in the exact same way. How about you?

It has been unequivocally put to rest in my life, and it changed me completely.

The DoI says that rights are endowed by a "Creator." Why are you so sure that the Creator mentioned is the one worshipped by you? It is sufficient that individuals have rights as a function of their existence. If you wish to label that phenomenon God, feel free.

All you have to do is read the writings of the founders - 95% of them were professing Christians. Even B. Franklin, the putative deist icon of modern skeptics, called for prayer at the Const. Convention as he made references to the God of the bible (i.e., "if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground..."). Obviously, it is not sufficient to just say individuals have rights "just because," otherwise the DofI would not have attributed them to God. Quite obviously, if they are not from God, then a tyrant can easily abrogate them. Are you going to tell the tyrant, "Hey, you can't take away my rights because they are a function of my existence"? He will laugh at you.

Again, I will note that if rights have no eternal source, then they have no force and can be changed by any man who feels like it (and often are!). Please note that the most infamous and brutal dictators of all time were men who thumbed their nose at the notion of absolute morals and God. If you look at history, it is God-fearing men who respected universal rights (Washington and our other foundedrs) and morals. All you have to do to see this is compare the American revolution with the French revolution. The American revolution (based in moral principle and conducted by godly men) was a controlled revolution that ended in peace and prosperity; the French Revolution was grounded in secular humanism and ended in the Reign of Terror and Dictatorship. History tells the story.

6,106 posted on 01/28/2003 10:42:10 AM PST by exmarine
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To: Condorman
Tell me, why is it wrong to murder someone? Why is it wrong to enslave someone? Can you give me an answer other than "it just is"? If you can't, then you have a problem, do you not?
6,108 posted on 01/28/2003 10:51:44 AM PST by exmarine
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