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To: Junior
I did. I have shown you what logic I followed to arrive at my conclusion that "value" and "worth" are subjective.

You have done no such thing. You have not proven empiricism itself. You must prove the method before you can use it. Your method (empiricism) has been weighed in the balance and found wanting.

I have yet to see a comparable argument from you that they are objective.

Two proofs:

(1)I hold these truths to be SELF EVIDENT - that all men are created equal. It is a self-evident truth which also conforms to human experience throughout human history.

(2) Your system is logically excluded, that only leaves mine since there is no other possibility. Your position is antithetical to human experience. Your position makes man a big fat zero. Your position excludes the mannishness of man. Next time you hug your family, just remember that the love you feel is nothing more than a random chemical process in your brain - but you can't do that can you! You cannot live your philosophy! That is the dichotomy you and all other atheists face every day of their lives. They live life as if it has meaning, but meaning can only come if there is a God. Without God, in a naturalistic universe, there is no meaning. The subjective meaning (not meaning at all) that you speak of is really a cruel joke played on you by natural selection. You are fooled into believing things have meaning when they can't possibly. Personality cannot come from non-personality (from random molecules that came together by chance) - that makes you a non-person and all others in your life non-persons. Face it, you are no more valuable than a rock in your system. All attempts to say otherwise are mere folly. Materialism is empty, devoid, it is time+energy+matter+chance and that is ALL IT IS. As far as I can tell, you do not have an argument, you simply nay-say mine. That, of course, does not work to fortify your position, even if you had any valid criticisms of my argument (which I also have yet to see).

3,480 posted on 01/07/2003 12:19:25 PM PST by exmarine
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To: exmarine
You must prove the method before you can use it.

Since when? The method I used was IF-THEN. I defined my variables and I drew my conclusions. Your sole argument has been: "You are wrong, so I'm right." I have yet to see how one objectively quantifies "value" or "worth." How do you objectively determine the relative worth between two individuals? Do you use a grading sheet? What criteria do you place upon that grading sheet? How were the criteria arrived at?

I have simply stated there is no objective way to quantify "value" or "worth" so they are subjective and are based solely upon the values assigned by the observer. There is no objectively measurable property called "worth." If there were, you (and anyone else, for that matter) could show how it is measured.

3,485 posted on 01/07/2003 12:29:01 PM PST by Junior (The Catholic Rationalist)
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