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To: Junior
The Bible is not objective -- it sets out precepts according to God -- i.e., it makes value judgements based upon what God considers the worth to be.

God is infinite and eternal. He is the infinite reference point that is needed. Therefore, He is objective. He created, oversees and holds together the entire universe - that makes Him objective.

You are beginning to fling insults here.

No insults intended - please don't take them that way. I was only pointing out the glaring contradictions in your catholicism vs. your materialism. You are made in God's image as I am and you deserve the same respect that I do. I will try to be less forceful from here on out.

You really haven't made a logical case for worth and values being objective (i.e., existing outside of the perception of the viewer). When you can point to a measurable property of an object and say, this is its worth, you will have a valid argument.

Ahh...empiricism rears its ugly head! Tell me, how do you measure or test the proposition that all reality is measurable? Your method falls under its own weight.

Oh, I have made a logical case - no doubt about it. Your logic is horribly flawed - it does not fit human reality at all. The fact is that humans (except sociopaths) instinctively believe human life has objective worth (read our founding documents); the fact is that humans go home and love their family members AS IF those family members had value, and AS IF the love was meaningful! If all is meaningless matter in motion in a godless universe, LOGIC DEMANDS that love and people are no more meaningful than a rock, and even if you think otherwise, your thoughts are no more meaningful than the impersonal random stimuli that created them. Your logic is at odds with human behavior - you live a hopeless dichotomy!; your logic is at odds with the mannishness of man. In the world of materialism, the mannishness of man is EXCLUDED. Logic demands it. You simply have not reached the logical conclusion of your worldview - you are blind to it. That is unfortunate. I do not mean to put you down - only to show you the contradictions in your thinking. I do not mean to offend.

3,411 posted on 01/07/2003 9:23:43 AM PST by exmarine
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To: exmarine
God is infinite and eternal. He is the infinite reference point that is needed. Therefore, He is objective.

No. God has His own views on things, and they may be at disagreement with the views held by other rational beings. Hence, God's views are subjective. They may be right, they may be eternal, but they are by no stretch of the definition "objective."

3,412 posted on 01/07/2003 9:26:06 AM PST by Junior (The Catholic Rationalist)
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To: exmarine
Empiricism may raise its ugly head, but that still does not excuse one for making the case that "worth" is a property of an object, and hence objective. Height is a property of an object; it can be measured any number of ways and those measurements will coincide to a high degree. In the same way one may measure the width and depth of an object or determine its color. Two or more observers can make these measurements and find they agree. These properties are therefore "objective" in that they are intrinsic to the object and are perceived identically by observers.

However, worth cannot be measured in this way. What I may consider worthwhile, you might consider minor or even disregard altogether. This makes "worth" or "value" inherently within the eye of the beholder, and no two observers will agree on that value. This is a good thing, as it is the basis for all economic systems.

3,417 posted on 01/07/2003 9:35:23 AM PST by Junior (The Catholic Rationalist)
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To: exmarine
the fact is that humans go home and love their family members AS IF those family members had value, and AS IF the love was meaningful! If all is meaningless matter in motion in a godless universe, LOGIC DEMANDS that love and people are no more meaningful than a rock, and even if you think otherwise, your thoughts are no more meaningful than the impersonal random stimuli that created them. Your logic is at odds with human behavior - you live a hopeless dichotomy!; your logic is at odds with the mannishness of man. In the world of materialism, the mannishness of man is EXCLUDED.

You are making statements and declaring them logical without backing them up.

"If all is meaningless matter in motion in a godless universe, LOGIC DEMANDS that love and people are no more meaningful than a rock"

Care to delve deeper into that statement? How does logic demand this? I think therefore I am... I don't need a supernatural being to know that my family has importance, it is self evident with or without your God.

"your thoughts are no more meaningful than the impersonal random stimuli that created them."

Because you say so? Regardless of the processes which generate thought, they are my own thoughts. You are again delving into areas that we don't quite understand completely yet (human thought) and because of our lack of knowledge you assume a God. Our ignorance does not necessitate a supreme intelligence.

3,419 posted on 01/07/2003 9:41:50 AM PST by B. Rabbit
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