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To: MadIvan
"And just who is doing the "apportioning"?"

people apportion liberty unto themselves.

You smuggle a lot of socialistic baggage in that.

I mean, if you just mean individuals decided their own personal level of freedom, well, that would be anarchy.

So what you are really meaning, I suspect, is that all other people determine what level of freedom you have.

So we can list the two categories:
1.) Individual self-determines is liberty
2.) Other people determine individual's liberty

Merely saying that "the people determine their own liberty" does not really narrow what you mean. It includes everything from dictatorships, socialistic states, to individual anarchy.

You need to be more precise with your language and with your justifications. Broad definitions like that leave all sorts of room for concept smuggling.

403 posted on 06/11/2002 6:51:45 AM PDT by jlogajan
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To: jlogajan; MadIvan
"Men of intemperate minds cannot be free, their passions form their fetters".

I think what MadIvan is saying is that when you give in to all your passions and temptations, you end up restraining your own freedom. People who cannot control their eating end up corpulent and lose the freedom associated with good health and mobility. People who cannot control their sexual passions (Bill Clinton, as an example), end up hurting those around them (Monica Lewinsky, his wife, and most especially his daughter) and themselves (certainly Clinton paid a heavy price for his indiscretions). People who cannot control their anger end up alienating others until they are shunned. And so on. One of the messages of Christianity, though little recognized, is that resisting sinful acts brings you untold freedom. Christ himself often spoke of this. The man who sells himself to the devil gets what he wants today, but loses his soul and the liberation and freedom from evil that God promises after death. What's so sad in today's society is that so many have lost sight of this simple but profound truth. The homosexual men who spend their time engaging in promiscuous anal sex with anonymous partners, the women who provide sex to every man who comes their way (but finding no commitment), the people who end up in accidents because of constant road rage, the drug-addicted and the alcohol-addicted - all have sacrificed freedom and well-being for their passions and temptations. Truly those passions have become unseen fetters. MadIvan is right.

412 posted on 06/11/2002 7:29:44 AM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: jlogajan
So what you are really meaning, I suspect, is that all other people determine what level of freedom you have.

No. If you are a junkie, you're a slave to serving your need for heroin. If you're a sex addict, you're a slave to getting a Lewinsky. If you are able to control yourself, then you are truly free.

Easy.

Regards, Ivan

436 posted on 06/11/2002 10:08:06 AM PDT by MadIvan
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