Posted on 03/10/2010 6:35:02 PM PST by Idabilly
Fly boy Slavery was legal in 1861. Yes, slavery was the excuse, not the cause. Besides secession needs no excuse. It could have been about tulip bulb futures, any reason to get away from Yankees is good enough. Why do you want us to stay anyway?, we’re like Palistinians in your opinion...
I think the Constitution should be ammended so that it has to be re-ratified by each state on an annual basis. By default each state automatically leaves the USA unless they vote to stay.
“We know that some Southern men do free their slaves, go North and become tip-top abolitionists, while some Northern Men go South and become most cruel masters. When Southern people tell us that they are no more responsible for the origin of slavery than we are, I acknowledge the fact. When it is said the institution exists, and it is very difficult to get rid of in any satisfactory way, I can understand and appreciate the saying. I surely will not blame them for not doing what I should not know what to do as to the existing institution. My first impulse would possibly be to free all slaves and send them to Liberia to their own native land. But a moment’s reflection would convince me that this would not be best for them. If they were all landed there in a day they would all perish in the next ten days, and there is not surplus money enough to carry them there in many times ten days. What then? Free them all and keep them among us as underlings. Is it quite certain that this would alter their conditions? Free them and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this, and if mine would, we well know that those of the great mass of whites will not. We cannot make them our equals. A system of gradual emancipation might well be adopted, and I will not undertake to judge our Southern friends for tardiness in this matter.” — Abraham Lincoln in speeches at Peoria, Illinois
“Judge Douglas has said to you that he has not been able to get an answer out of me to the question whether I am in favor of Negro citizenship. So far as I know, the Judge never asked me the question before. (applause from audience) He shall have no occasion to ever ask it again, for I tell him very frankly that I am not in favor of Negro citizenship. (renewed applause) If the state of Illinois has the power to grant Negroes citizenship, I shall be opposed to it. (cries of “here, here” and “good, good” from audience) That is all I have to say.” — Abraham Lincoln, Speech at Springfield, Illinois, June 1857
“The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these [new] territories. We want them for the homes of free white people.” — Abraham Lincoln, October 16, 1854
“I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality; and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in the favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary.” — Abraham Lincoln, “Lincoln’s Reply to Douglas, Ottawa, Illinois, August 21, 1858,” in “Abraham Lincoln: His Speeches and Writings, ed. Roy P. Basler (New York: Da Capo Press, 1990), p. 445
“I will say, then, that I am not nor have ever been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races-—that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the White race.” — Abraham Lincoln, “Fourth Lincoln-Douglas Debate, September 18, 1858, Charleston, Illinois,” in “Abraham Lincoln: Speeches and Writings” (New York: Library of America, 1989), p. 636, and in Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, Volume 5, page 371
“Free them, and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this.... We cannot, then, make them equals.” — Abraham Lincoln, “Lincoln’s Reply to Douglas,” p. 444
“What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races.” — Abraham Lincoln, Spoken at Springfield, Illinois on July 17th, 1858; from Abraham Lincoln: Complete Works, 1894, Volume 1, page 273
“The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these [new] territories. We want them for the homes of free white people.” — Abraham Lincoln, October 16, 1854
Jefferson
[LITTLE ROCK] ARKANSAS TRUE DEMOCRAT, March 7, 1860, p. 2, c. 2
The Exiled Free Negroes Returning into Slavery.
The northern papers have been busily assailing the inhumanity of the act which exiled this unfortunate class from our State.
We have now tested practically the law which relieved us from their presence, and the free negroes have tested the life of freedom among the freedom shriekers at the North.
Our experience is of the most agreeable character, and the law has proven itself to be one of the very best on our statute book. Since Arkansas has been made by that act strictly a slave State, since all hope is cut off by statutory enactment of slaves here being liberated by will, or deed, unless the slave is carried beyond our limits in the lifetime of his owner and set free, there has been a marked change for the better in the character of the slave population. There is no discontent and no disposition to shirk service due even to indulgent masters. We can safely recommend to our sister States the law as salutary and wise under existing circumstances. The conduct of the northern abolitionists brought about the necessity of this law, forced us in self-defence to pass it, and the result is they have forced into voluntary slavery a large number of free negroes.
Several of “the exiles” have returned and selected masters in this city. Others have returned to other counties to our certain knowledge, and those here report a state of facts which any one could have foreseen.
All left here with plenty of money. A few month’s residence reduced them to penury and want. They say the abolitionists swindled them out of all their money and gave them in exchange only lip professions, that the free negro of the North has poorer fare and a harder time than the slave of the South.
From the beginning my beef has been about the misuse/ignorance of the principles of the Declaration of Independence. The original article uses the Declaration of Independence to justify Southern Secession in the 1860's. I object to the use of the DOI for that purpose.
The DOI explicitly states that Separation REQUIRES and excuse.
a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.
Governments long established SHOULD NOT be changed for light and transient Causes
Personally, It doesn't much matter to me why the South left or whether Lincoln was a hero or a villain. America stands or falls on whether Americans today understand and uphold the principles in the DOI. It's critical to our survival. Why should abortion be illegal? Because the right to life is unalienable. That principle was UNANIMOUSLY approved in 1776. Why is health care not a right? Because one cannot have a right to something that has to be produced by others. The right to own property is a natural unalienable right. Gay marriage? A child has a natural right to a mother and a father. William Blackstone: you can look it up. Civil marriage is about protecting the unalienable rights of children. Gay marriage is nonsense. Was Lincoln a hypocrite? I don't care, he wrote many things about the Declaration of Independence that we could use a weapons to defeat liberals, and that is what I care about.
You seem to have a real issue with intellectual discourse. Are you here to talk about the civil war or are you here to toss invectives and gladly masturbate over the thought of killing your fellow man?
Don’t worry I know, I am some dirty Yankee who deserves to be hung until dead for not giving you the right to whip a black man for being black, yada yada.
My goal is no longer to defeat the liberal, let them try to create their Godless utopia on earth. Just leave me out. They deserve the right to try. I want my state out of the equation, that's all. This Union is so unnatural and uncomfortable I can't believe CW II hasn't already happened.
If you are calling me a racist then we have a problem.
Well I had to get out in front of your insult back at me seeing that is your MO in this thread.
A SAD TRUTH.
Have you been drinking?
Have you? I don’t drink myself. Get into too much trouble.
You may be correct that changes were made to the DOI so that it would pass unanimously. The change of Jefferson's "He has incited treasonable insurrections of our fellow citizens …" to "He has excited domestic insurrection among us …" would be consistent with your thesis. Not everyone back then considered slaves citizens or perhaps even knew of any slave that was considered a "fellow citizen."
Witness Charles Pinckney, a member of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, who said the following in 1821 [Link, scroll to the bottom]:
It appears by the Journal of the Convention that formed the Constitution of the United States, that I was the only member of that body that ever submitted the plan of a constitution completely drawn in articles and sections; and this having been done at a very early state of their proceedings, the article on which now so much stress is laid, and on the meaning of which the whole of this question is made to turn, and which is in these words: "the citizens of each State shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities in every State," having been made by me, it is supposed I must know, or perfectly recollect, what I meant by it. In answer, I say, that, at the time I drew that constitution, I perfectly knew that there did not then exist such a thing in the Union as a black or colored citizen, nor could I then have conceived it possible such a thing could have ever existed in it; nor, notwithstanding all that has been said on the subject, do I now believe one does exist in it.
It is pretty clear that Jefferson believed slavery violated its principles, and he would know.
Probably so, but he was outvoted or overruled on the final wording of the DOI. The final version condemns the king (meaning in this case his agent, Lord Dunmore) for freeing the colonists' slaves to fight against the rebels. Very Lincolnesque, that Lord Dunmore. Wait, wait ... the DOI condemns Dunmore's actions and perhaps Lincoln's by extension.
These are the reasons that I argue the choice of Lincoln OR Jefferson is a false choice.
On the question of whether slaves should be free, the difference between them may not be that great. One could argue there is a difference in degree between them on whether slaves should be free.
On the question of whether they followed the Constitution, both Jefferson and Lincoln did some unconstitutional things, i.e, Jefferson apparently so concerning the Louisiana purchase and Lincoln concerning everything but the color of ink the Constitution was written in. That is an overstatement, I know, but gee whiz, what a difference between them over the Constitution!
He could have NOT made the call for 75,000 troops to kill their own brothers for legally seceding. Since he as only the president, and not yet king, he had to lie about what the war effort was in order to get volunteers to kill their kin down South.
The fact that marron’s summary is so wrong it is not even right is, I assume, incidental to your feelings.
You can always tell when Iowamark comes on board, his first sentence always contains the word Klan when responding to someone who does not worship Lincoln. He is a bigot and any response to him is a waste of time.
The prize was State’s rights as promised in the great debates leading to ratification of the Constitution. Conveniently forgotten by several contributors above.
God gets no vote, He is sovereign and orders the affairs of men. He warned us against kings and democracy, for He WAS king and we should have kept his Theocracy. The institution of slavery has always been a terrible blight on nations throughout history in every corner of the earth. Ufortunately it has always been and was not a southern invention as some seem to assume. Oddly enough, God’s “vote” as you may call it, was for slaves to obey their masters and masters to treat their slaves fairly.
In any case, slavery was on the way out in the States. As Gen. Lee lamented (who owned not one slave), that the South would have ended slavery since Lincoln (who it seems impregnated his) would use it as an excuse for the war. Once again, Lee was right, the victors get to write the history.
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