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To: eleni121
Zimdog is blatantly misrepresenting the article he claims as a source for his numbers, which is probably why he's so evasive about sourcing it. I've got a copy of the same article from the Journal of Modern History and it is clear that he is misrepresenting it's numbers. Here is the full text of the quote he excerpted:

"Altogether, over 122,000 people were mobilized in French West Africa before the armistice, including 9,622 Europeans (mostly officers). The Tirailleurs Se´ne´galais made up the lion’s share of the colonial troops (275,354 men, total), followed by the Indo-Chinese units (88,898 men)."

Notice the 275K number he gives is much larger than the 122K number that immediate precedes it. Here's why: the 275K figure is the number of colonials they recruited before France surrendered in 1940, but only 122,000 of them actually made it into the service (of which almost 10% were European officers).

The article also clearly points out that the Tirailleurs Se´ne´galais came from all over Africa - not just West Africa as Zimdog claimed. There's more though. Scheck continues with the numbers who actually fought in Europe:

"In the campaign of May–June 1940, approximately sixty-six thousand Tirailleurs Se´ne´galais experienced combat in France"

Sheck also indicates how these troops were raised. They weren't volunteers, but rather forced conscripts.

So let's do a little math from what we know. The 66,000 Tirailleurs Se´ne´galais plus the mixed colonial Re´giments d’Infanterie Coloniale Mixtes Se´ne´galais together provided about 80,000 troops from all over Africa who actually fought in Europe. 10% of them were French officers, putting us at 72,000 actual African troops total.

The casualty rate of the French colonial units in Europe was 45% (remember - the french got slaughtered by the German attack). Madagascar's casualties in Europe were 10,500, which puts their total numbers around 23,000 assuming their casualty rate matched the rest. 72,000-23,000 leaves 49,000 from all other French colonial holdings in Africa. That includes the majority-muslim West Africa and the majority non-muslim Central Africa.

Let's be generous and assume that West Africa provided more than Central Africa (and that is being very generous - the West African colonies sided with Vichy) and suppose 60% of the troops came from there, 2/3rds of them Muslim.

That leaves us with an estimate of about 19,000 French Muslim colonial CONSCRIPTS fighting in Europe.

129 posted on 02/16/2007 7:13:37 PM PST by lqclamar ("That's it, Seth, you can't blame them. It's want of education. That's all it is.")
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To: lqclamar
The full text of footnote #16 is as follows:

The overall number of Tirailleurs Se ́ ne ́ galais deployed in France between Septem- ber 3, 1939, and June 25, 1940, was 100,000, but around one-third of them were still in training or in transit when the armistice took effect; see “Troupes Coloniales en 1939 – 1940: La mobilisation et la pe ́ riode d’attente,” L’Ancre d’Or Bazeilles, no. 256 (1990), 27 – 38. For a list of soldiers mobilized in France’s colonies in 1939 – 40, see Fargettas, “Le massacre des soldats,” 2:26. Altogether, over 122,000 people were mo- bilized in French West Africa before the armistice, including 9,622 Europeans (mostly officers). The Tirailleurs Se ́ ne ́ galais made up the lion’s share of the colonial troops (275,354 men, total), followed by the Indo-Chinese units (88,898 men).

The article also clearly points out that the Tirailleurs Se´ne´galais came from all over Africa - not just West Africa as Zimdog claimed.

You will have to cite the where that is stated.

Notice the 275K number he gives is much larger than the 122K number that immediate precedes it. Here's why: the 275K figure is the number of colonials they recruited before France surrendered in 1940, but only 122,000 of them actually made it into the service (of which almost 10% were European officers).

If you'll read the article more carefully, you'll see that the 275K number refers to the entire war. The 122K number refers to the troops mobilized before France fell to the Nazis in the summer of 1940.

Sheck also indicates how these troops were raised. They weren't volunteers, but rather forced conscripts.

Many of them were volunteers and many of the conscripts re-enlisted voluntarily. You'll remember that we also had a draft here in the United States. Certainly you don't mean to cast aspersions on drafted GIs, do you?

So let's do a little math from what we know. The 66,000 Tirailleurs Se´ne´galais plus the mixed colonial Re´giments d’Infanterie Coloniale Mixtes Se´ne´galais together provided about 80,000 troops from all over Africa who actually fought in Europe. 10% of them were French officers, putting us at 72,000 actual African troops total.

The casualty rate of the French colonial units in Europe was 45% (remember - the french got slaughtered by the German attack). Madagascar's casualties in Europe were 10,500, which puts their total numbers around 23,000 assuming their casualty rate matched the rest. 72,000-23,000 leaves 49,000 from all other French colonial holdings in Africa. That includes the majority-muslim West Africa and the majority non-muslim Central Africa.

Scheck is very clear. 66,000 Tirailleurs Sénégalais means 66,000 troops from West Africa.

Let's be generous and assume that West Africa provided more than Central Africa (and that is being very generous - the West African colonies sided with Vichy) and suppose 60% of the troops came from there, 2/3rds of them Muslim.

In that Scheck is very clear that these troops came from West Africa (see fn #16 again), it's quite fair to say that of the 66,000 TS troops who were on the front lines defending France from the Nazi horde, 2/3rds of them were Muslim. That gives approx. 44,000 Muslim troops fighting in the heart of Europe years before the Handschar was a terrible glimmer in Himmeler's eye.

That you ignore the other 150,000 troops that fought with the FFL shows your respect for those brave soldiers.

133 posted on 02/16/2007 7:31:10 PM PST by zimdog
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