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To: betty boop
"But this understanding is precisely what I object to, spunketts, on the understanding that one cannot "step twice into the same river." The arrow of time makes this sort of thing impossible. There is no such thing as "same" if time has elapsed between two measurements."

Time is a coordinate. There is no arrow, or direction to time in flat space. Time is symmetrical there. I think you are referring to unsymmetrical dynamics of an assembly, or arrangement which is progressing from one state to another. The state properties change. Those are the observables. Now any to systems with the same state properties are the same, regardless of time. That's why any two, or more systems can be compared and be noted to have the same state properties. Even one system can be measured repeatedly and found to have the same values. The values for any particular elements of the system are irrelevant.

"the late, great Harvard biologist Gaylord Simpson (among others) has noted that living systems are precisely those systems which are not fully subject to the second law of thermodynamics."

Regardless of his greatness, he's wrong. The 2nd law applies to all living systems. The fact that part of the system has been ignored is very important to note here, because the whole system shows that the 2nd law does in fact apply.

"I submit the answer to this question cannot be given by a precise and exhaustive inventory of the parts, or subsystems, taken singly or in any combination."

I'll have to stick with my original statement, because there's still no reason to doubt it. What's missing in the the above quote is that the elements of the set of parts have properties which determine the interactions and dynamics that are the essence of life. Conservation of energy, the consistency of essence of the particles at this temperature and reversability in the observables of the configuraiton leave no room for doubt, that the machinery of life is physical and that no nonphysical life giving force is required, or needed to result in "being alive".

404 posted on 09/24/2006 7:16:36 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: spunkets
I'll have to stick with my original statement, because there's still no reason to doubt it.

Okay -- not a problem, spunkets! And good luck to you, navigating that direction.

Good night! (And sleep tight -- may God's angels bless and keep you 'til the morrow....)

493 posted on 09/24/2006 8:34:05 PM PDT by betty boop (Beautiful are the things we see...Much the most beautiful those we do not comprehend. -- N. Steensen)
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