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To: betty boop
"Sure it is, Freedumb2003. Faith is foundational in any exercise of reason. You've got to have faith in something or reason has nothing to do, and no way to do it. For instance, how could science be done without confidence that there are things to be learned and logic and valid natural laws by which they may be known? The word "confidence" = "with + faith.""

"FWIW b_sharp, I am using the word "faith" in precisely the same sense intended by Pope Benedict XVI in his recent, highly controversial Regensburg Inaugural Address. And I find the reaction I'm getting around here from certain quarters to this usage is eerily similar to the reaction the speech got from certain quarters of the Islamist world."

"I'll stick by my usage as the fundamental one. Not least because the Pope does -- who is an extraordinarily brilliant metaphysician and epistemologist as well as superb theologian.

He may very well be brilliant. He may have also come up with a very valid definition for the word. I don't know, I haven't read his definition. Nor do I know that your use is faithful to his interpretation without knowing his version. Perhaps you could explain to me what his definition is?

Aside from that I can only go on what you posted previously. I have reprinted that comment at the top of this post.

You define the term 'confidence' as 'with faith' while describing a situation, the process of methodological naturalism, where confidence is based on observation. Even those natural laws you mention are based on observation. That observation is that when we perform tests, even such basic tests as starting your car in the morning, the results are consistently and reliably the same. Our entire life is spent testing actions and effects. With those that recur regularly and predictably we gain confidence that they will recur reliably in the future.

"My use of the word "faith" is not "equivocal." It is essential.

Unless you are placing your 'faith' in God (which I understand to be a religious faith) within the definition of faith as a learned function of consistent and repeatable effects, you are indeed equivocating.

Since you have yet to define the term 'faith' as you intend it to be understood, I have no idea if it is essential or not.

398 posted on 09/24/2006 6:59:34 PM PDT by b_sharp (Objectivity? Objectivity? We don't need no stinkin' objectivity.)
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To: b_sharp
where confidence is based on observation.

We wouldn't bother to observe if we weren't confident it could get us anything or anywhere. There is no mystery here, b_sharp.

You wrote: "...observation is that when we perform tests, even such basic tests as starting your car in the morning, the results are consistently and reliably the same."

To which all I can say is: You have more confidence in your car than I have in mine, these days. :^)

There is no universal law that says your car must start up when you turn the ignition key. And when it comes to cars not starting up in the morning, may your "regularity and predictability" be damned!!!

IOW: There is no certainty in this world, all your theories and expectations notwithstanding!

Capice???

476 posted on 09/24/2006 8:22:53 PM PDT by betty boop (Beautiful are the things we see...Much the most beautiful those we do not comprehend. -- N. Steensen)
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