Posted on 09/03/2006 5:18:40 AM PDT by Man50D
Abolish the federal income tax!
No more taxes on savings and investments!
A "Fair Tax" can completely fund the federal government, Social Security and Medicare!
You control how much you spend!
So what are we waiting for?
You, the taxpayers of America burdened with an income tax that is costly, wasteful and sinking America into inevitable bankruptcy. All current forms of federal taxation would end! You would keep 100 percent of your paycheck. You control how you spend your paycheck. It's your money. You make the decisions as to how you want to spend your money.
The Fair Tax would create more jobs and give the USA a level playing field when selling overseas. United States Senator John Linder (R-Georgia) is sponsoring the "Fair Tax Act of 2005." If enacted by Congress, it would accomplish all of the above. Simple. Easy. And affordable.
It's the best way to downsize government without disrupting the economy.
To join the "Fair Tax" movement in America, just sign the "Economic Freedom & Fairness" Petition supporting forward-thinking solutions. Go to www.grassfire.net and liberate the working class of taxpayers. Grassfire is trying to give the working class the same kind of freedom America's founders gave to those who joined the American Revolution in 1776 with the "Declaration of Independence." We won the Revolutionary War, but have lost our country since the 16th Amendment (income tax) became "Law" in 1913.
(Excerpt) Read more at bayshorenews.com ...
That wasn't the tax proposal he was discussing, your cultic obsession notwithstanding.
TRY to keep up.
Are you drunk?
He's getting more abusive and hysterical than usual.
The poster RobFromGahas long been in favor of the income tax but started posting on these FairTax threads posing as someone almost convinced to support the FairTax (which was never true - he has always lied about his motives). Even now he tries to pose as someone helping to benefit all mankind out of the goodness of his heart by exposing what he repeatedly (and for no valid reason) calls "the FairTax fraud", etc. as you'll repeatedly see here. When challenged to show the comparison in purchasing power between the two tax systems he reverts into spluttering and claiming FairTaxers are dishonest spammers, etc.
You'll get huge doses of that but little in the way of solid information except endless postings of his own interpretations - his vanity posts that he repeatedly posts to let all know how smart he is (he's a salesman, not an economist just so you realized his mindset). He has also never been willing to admit any error he has made even when repeatedly pointed out to him by several posters. I suggest you read the bill, spend some time on he FairTax website and decide for yourself. Keep in mind, hough that under the FairTax no one (NO ONE) ever pays the full marginal tax rate of 23% ti (or the misstated 30% rate the opponents always use). Every taxpayer under the FairTax pays only his effective tax rate which is much less that his present effective income tax rate. It is even less that the effective tax rate shown in the examples on the FairTax website.
When all is said and done, its all he's got.
Even the other cultists appear to be abandoning him.
How do you know that? Are you psychic? Do you hear voices?
When challenged to show the comparison in purchasing power between the two tax systems he reverts into spluttering and claiming FairTaxers are dishonest spammers, etc.
YOU can not show comparative purchasing power because your data is based on assumptions given as instructions to those producing the bought and paid for "studies". YOU say that an employee will take home his entire paycheck with no taxes removed, but you can't say exactly what that means. YOU say that prices will fall, but you can't say by how much. Without clearly defining exactly what those numbers are, you've got nothing to compare.
Every taxpayer under the FairTax pays only his effective tax rate which is much less that his present effective income tax rate. It is even less that the effective tax rate shown in the examples on the FairTax website.
And every taxpayer pays the tax on EVERYTHING (except used stuff, of course). When you go to the grocery store you pay the tax on food. When you go to the doctor, you pay the tax on his service. When you fill your prescription you pay the tax. You even pay the tax on your "no fees ever" checking account. Apparently you pay the tax on the market value of rent on the home you own. And all of this tax pigdog says will be popular.
Oh, one more thing, Looey, under the FairTax people do not pay "30%" on anything - that's a mythical marginal tax rate that isn't even true.Yea the AFFT website is full of myths but this isn't one of them.
I know the FairTax rate is 23 percent when compared to current income and Social Security rate quotes. What is the rate of the sales tax at the retail counter? 30 percent. This issue is often confusing, so we explain more here....
Pigdog just called his own source a myth?
That's just sad.
Pigdog just called his own source a myth?pigdog (hoping no one will notice) only pretends he knows what's on the website and in the bill.
It wasn't covered in class so he didn't know it would be on the test.
"Should I vote against my interests to prove I'm not envious? "
You just did by posting in favor of what the Tax Panl put out as a report. It - as I old you but you apparently failed to realize - does not review the FairTax bill as written at all but only a "specially modified version of a consumption tax that they refer to as a "retail sales tax".
And also don't post trash like this claiming it's your work or that you've done soimething. It is complete nonsense as I said and as I've demonstrated. I asked for YOUR work - not the Panel's (since I'd already shown their flawed work). Let's take what you claim to be your definitive numeric rebuttal and see what it looks like under the actual FairTax (and also what the Tax Panel's report comes out looking like).
Right off the bat the Panels numbers are suspect since a M0K family would have an income tax rate of 9.6% and pay a tax of $3,773 (rather than the 14.3%/$5625 the Panel claims). We are using the latest available CBO numbers of actual effective tax rates and amounts on corresponding income. Perhaps the Panel is including the effect of hidden tax as the additional amount paid but IAE they are well wide of the mark. Under the FairTax side of things, this same income with the allowance for non taxed things such as state.local taxes, church/charity contributions, savings/invenstment, mortgage and other debt payments, etc. would make his effective FairTax rate 8.66% with a FairTax paid of $2,723.
This is only the first glimpse into how off base the Panel report is. Let's keep this in perspective with the Panel's (our) numbers - they said Income Tax rate 14.3% ($5,635) and FairTax rate (not specified) with a tax of $7,997. This is almost twice the FairTax amount if the entire specified income rate had been spent on taxable things - which is not possible. In addition the Panel has the wrong amount for the prebate - there is no prebate amount of $6,694 as they specify ... totally incorrect. In fact the claimed 42 percent increase of $2,372 is in reality a decrease of from $5,625 to $2,723 - a 51.6% decrease under the FairTax rather than the claimed 42% increase. The real difference though, is less since the Panel is quite wrong on the income tax amount. It should have been $3,773 for the income tax and $2,723 for the FairTax - only off by 27.8% (with the FairTax also lower here). In either case they are terribly in error. But let's go on even though it looks bad for the Panel.
In fact since their meaning is garbled on the next two examples, lets skip to the 4th example which is clearly specified, the S1K example. The taxpayer would have an effective income tax rate of 10.16% ($2,347 in tax) and under the Fairtax the effective tax rate would be 7.54% (a tax of $1,480). This clearly shows the magnitude of the error (bias?) they have since instead of having a FairTax increase of $5,866 over the income tax (for a total tax of $9,385 - clearly beyond any reason) there is actually a decrease of 37% paid under the FairTax (ignoring the clearly wrong Panel data and using the actual income tax figure).
So you see the Panel - as I said has it's head up its (err) archway and are either grossly incompetent or grossly biased. Either way if you hang your hat on those figures - YOU LOSE. THEY'RE QUITE WRONG as I said in an earlier example I suggested you read (which obviously you didn't) since it had about the same degree of "accuracy". Here's the other erroneous Panel work . And don't waste my time with these other two erroneous examples either - they are no more accurate even if one could tell what was intended as a meaning.
Anyone with a functioning BS detector would know that your claim that the average American was going to cut his overall Federal tax bill by more than 50% is ridiculous, and that any "study" that shows this is using bad assumptions or is being grossly misrepresented. That can be said without even looking at the calculation. The result is economically impossible.
An act of Congress, like the Fair Tax, isn't the solution.
Have to repeal the 16th Amendment first. If the 16th isn't abolished, the real possibility is that we could end up with both the Fair Tax and an income tax and be much worse off than before.
People who avoid taxes will still avoid taxes. Sure when they buy something legal they pay taxes, as they do today in the form of hidden taxes embedded in the products. But are the drug dealer and prostitute going to pay taxes on the goods and services they sell? See when you provide a $100 service or product to another person, you need to charge an extra $30 and remit it to the government. The illegal activities will still not do this and will cheat the system just as they do today. The fairtax does nothing to capture the underground economy despite their claims.
Here's an example for you. A couple earning $100K buys a new $330K house and a new $30K SUV. They have just spend over 100% of their income in sales tax. And thats just two purchases.
Using the 4th example given by lmom above in #560 as I described it in #572:
"The taxpayer would have an effective income tax rate of 10.16% ($2,347 in tax) and under the Fairtax the effective tax rate would be 7.54% (a tax of $1,480). This clearly shows the magnitude of the error (bias?) they have since instead of having a FairTax increase of $5,866 over the income tax (for a total tax of $9,385 - clearly beyond any reason) there is actually a decrease of 37% paid under the FairTax (ignoring the clearly wrong Panel data and using the actual income tax figure)."
Keep in mind this was a taxpayer who had an income of $23,100. Even if all was spent for FairTaxable items (which is not possible), the amount of tax would be $5,313 and not the claimed $9,385 (the claimed INCREASE of $5,866 OVER current tax law). The study is obviously hugely flawed and its claims are not possible for the FairTax ... but of course that wasn't what they evaluated at all but their own strawman interpretation which is grossly different from the FairTax as the actual FairTax of $1,480 vs. $9,385 shows. Something is rotten in Denmark - and it isn't the FairTax.
Looking around a bit you'll come upon the fact that Brookings Institute (the well-known anti-FairTax liar Bill Gale's employer and food source), we find that there really IS a close connection since BI announces with pride a session to tell everyone how great the Tax Panel was:
"Rosanne Altshuler of Rutgers University, chief economist with the Tax Reform Panel, will summarize the commission's recommendations, and William Frenzel and Charles O. Rossotti, senior members of the Tax Reform Panel, will explain the reasoning behind their far-reaching recommendations. Kevin Hassett of the American Enterprise Institute, Eugene Steuerle of the Urban Institute and the Tax Policy Center, and Bill Gale of the Brookings Institution and the Tax Policy Center will assess the panel's success in meeting its stated tax reform goals. A questions and answer session will follow."
The Roseanne mentioned is a Professor Emeritus from Rutgers getting her 15 minutes of fame and you'll notice hat your pal Bill Gale sticks his nose in also. All are part of the Beltway clique that works to propagandize the existing tax system and tell us that there's "nothing inherently wrong with an income tax" that can't be "tweaked" but YUK; all those other tax types are really bad (especially the redefined Retail Sales Tax; not even called the FairTax since it isn't). A strawman and nothing but.
Of course Robbie, we've never seen any meaningful numbers from you but as the simple 4th example in #560/572 shows, even a simple arithmetic calculation shows that the "stuff" put out by he Tax Panel is nonsense and can't be true, while the FairTax vs income tax examples you have been repeatedly given are ALL taken from actual existing tax facts and are derived by simple arithmetic. Try it.
There are no "assumptions" in these comparative purchasing power examples, let alone "bad ones" as you keep incorrectly claiming. You never met a lie you didn't like it seems. It's your claim that is "economically impossible" and since you claim otherwise all you need to do is:
SHOW US THE MONEY!!!
Those in this sort of illegal economy WILL, however, pay the full 23% ti FairTax rate on purchases of taxable items - just as will you and I (and at the same marginal rate which, again, is not the effective rate actually funded by the taxpayer).
Every arguement that pigdog can't refute is a strawman. Besides you intentionally mistate my point, another tactic that pigdog usually employs. I am showing the claim that you collect taxes from the underground economy is false.
Of course not - nor would any tax system and such was never claimed (except by deceitful FairTax opponents).
Strange then why do you always falsely claim the fairtax does capture tax from the underground economy.
even when he uses carefully crafted and pervasive BS to support seemingly logical extensions of BS - it's still all BS.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.