Save America with the ‘Fair Tax Act’

The Courier ^ | August 31,2006 | Gordon Bishop

[Man50D]

Abolish the federal income tax!

No more taxes on savings and investments!

A "Fair Tax" can completely fund the federal government, Social Security and Medicare!

You control how much you spend!

So what are we waiting for?

You, the taxpayers of America burdened with an income tax that is costly, wasteful and sinking America into inevitable bankruptcy. All current forms of federal taxation would end! You would keep 100 percent of your paycheck. You control how you spend your paycheck. It's your money. You make the decisions as to how you want to spend your money.

The Fair Tax would create more jobs and give the USA a level playing field when selling overseas. United States Senator John Linder (R-Georgia) is sponsoring the "Fair Tax Act of 2005." If enacted by Congress, it would accomplish all of the above. Simple. Easy. And affordable.

It's the best way to downsize government without disrupting the economy.

To join the "Fair Tax" movement in America, just sign the "Economic Freedom & Fairness" Petition supporting forward-thinking solutions. Go to www.grassfire.net and liberate the working class of taxpayers. Grassfire is trying to give the working class the same kind of freedom America's founders gave to those who joined the American Revolution in 1776 with the "Declaration of Independence." We won the Revolutionary War, but have lost our country since the 16th Amendment (income tax) became "Law" in 1913.

[cowboyway]

The only way we'll get more money from the drug dealer is if he adds the Fair Tax to the price of his illegal drugs and sends that money to the federal government.

What part of 'sales tax' don't you understand?

The drug dealers 'income' is tax free now.

The drug dealers 'income' will be tax free under the FairTax plan.

The drug dealer will not add sales tax to his product.

BUT, the drug dealer will buy a big SUV for 65K. Then he'll pimp his ride with about 50K worth spinning wheels and rap blasting stereo equipment.

Unless he's making his own clothes he'll be buying closets full from a retail store.

And of course, he'll have a ho or two that he'll be spending lots of money on.

Everything that he buys, legally, will have a federal sales tax. The drug dealer is paying money to the federal government for the first time.

So I'm saying it: We Will Get More From The Drug Dealer Under The FairTax Plan.

[Your Nightmare]

So I'm saying it: We Will Get More From The Drug Dealer Under The FairTax Plan.

And less from the other criminal in a drug transaction, the drug BUYER. His income is taxed currently BEFORE he buys the drugs but it won't be touched under the FairTax.

It's a wash.

[lucysmom]

There's no reason your parents house should be reassessed, unless there's a change in title..If you want to make it "fair" it would be your parents, not their neighbors on the losing side.

I would lose too. If I inherit, I get the same low, low rate, and If I leave the property to my kids, they get the low rate.

While I like the benefit, I can't help but notice that the tax burden gets passed on to someone else, not unlike tax evasion that results in higher rates over all - except, its legal.

[pigdog]

It's not a wash at all. Many drug purchases are funded with stolen money which, presumably, already had income tax imposed. So while it may not get taxes from all drug buyers money it will certainly get the income tax already paid on the stolen money. It's not a "wash" at all.

In addition, that ignores the 21-25 million illegal aliens - many of which pay zip in taxes now but who will pay the full FairTax ... and they won't be prebate-eligible, either.

[lewislynn]

many of which pay zip in taxes now but who will pay the full FairTax ... and they won't be prebate-eligible, either.

I guess you've never heard about all the phony SS#'s being used nor their legal eligibility to collect SS benefits...Lets see, what bureaucracy would be mailing out those millions of checks each month?...Oh yea The Social Security Administration.

[pigdog]

Got numbers? Got links??

[robertpaulsen]

"The drug dealer is paying money to the federal government for the first time."

Well, let's say the drug dealer is paying money directly to the federal government for the first time -- he's been paying that same money indirectly under our existing tax system. I thought my lawyer example demonstrated that.

So I'm saying "We Will Get The Same From The Drug Dealer Under The FairTax Plan". The only way we'll get more from the drug dealer is if he starts collecting the Fair Tax on his illegal drugs and sending that money in.

[robertpaulsen]

"In addition, that ignores the 21-25 million illegal aliens - many of which pay zip in taxes now"

Right, they send that money back home to Mexico. Under the Fair Tax, how much will they pay our government on the money they send back to Mexico?

I'd guess just about the same -- zip.

[robertpaulsen]

Yeah. It's not about the "general" average taxpayer. It's about the "specific" average taxpayer.

I read that and thought, only from pigdog, our resident dissembler.

[cowboyway]

And less from the other criminal in a drug transaction, the drug BUYER.

Are you saying that the drug buyer doesn't buy cars, clothes, haircuts, motel rooms, paper towels, mouthwash, furniture, etc?

[cowboyway]

I thought my lawyer example demonstrated that.

If you're going to stick with this embedded tax example to make a case that the drug dealer is somehow already paying income tax then that means those of us that have federal income taxes withheld from our paychecks and then purchase goods with the remainder are paying double, triple, quadruple, ad infinitum.

The only way we'll get more from the drug dealer is if he starts collecting the Fair Tax on his illegal drugs and sending that money in.

You are blindly hung up on income tax.

One more time.

I pay income tax.

Drug dealer pays zero income tax.

FairTax is passed.

Neither I nor drug dealer pay income tax.

Drug dealer and I both purchase similar goods and services.

Drug dealer and I both pay the exact same percent of national sales tax.

Now, which system is Fair?

[RobFromGa]

If you're going to stick with this embedded tax example to make a case that the drug dealer is somehow already paying income tax then that means those of us that have federal income taxes withheld from our paychecks and then purchase goods with the remainder are paying double, triple, quadruple, ad infinitum.

No, you aren't being taxed twice. You are working for your take-home pay, your employer is sending the income tax and payroll taxes that you are having withheld and paying them for you. These costs are in the costs of the products that your employer sells, and they are being paid by the customers of that business.

So, all the taxes are really already being paid as a consumption tax, when you buy goods and services you pay the taxes embedded in the items. If you didn't make the purchase, the good or service would not be manufactured or performed, and the employer would need fewer employees.

[pigdog]

Re your #1087 & 1088 -

You quaint hypothetical "lawyer" example shows that the drug dealer is paying nothing to the government - he pays it to the lawyer ... and even then there are nothing like the 20-30% tax "contribution". It's much less than that and it's from the lawyer, not the illegal guy IAE. The effective tax rate you show for your "lawyer" at about 31% is roughly twice his actual probable rate - meaning that the example is clearly bogus.

The amount of embedded tax that your cronies have stipulated to is 9% IAE; not 20 or 30 so you don't get to argue it both ways and doesn't apply here anyway.

There is no rationalizing that the illegal guy is paying the tax to the government since he'd be paying the lawyer's fee in any event, tax or not, and if there were no illegal guy to pay the fee the lawyer would chase some other ambulances instead to buy his BMW and send an appropriate amount in tax contributions to Uncle from that since presumable he and his family likes to eat, be housed, and buy a 50-inch plasma HD set from time to time.

And in addition there is no saying that the lawyer is not "funning" Uncle and evading HIS taxes too, so pretending an honest lawyer is helping the illegal guy and is in turn being forthright about paying his own taxes is a contradiction especially since you've doubled the lawyers effective income tax rate artificially. Is he being overly-honest to try to keep the IRS off his (and his sole client's) back???

As for your "illegal alien" in #1088, there's no tax under either system on money sent "home" so that doesn't change (and is not the point anyway). What will change is that under the FairTax, these illegals will pay the full FairTax rate and they're also not eligible for the prebate. That will certainly make it less attractive to come here illegally.

BTW I note that you've declined the offer I made earlier to help you more exactly with your "baseball bat" cost example if you'd provide some credible data as I said in #917. I'll keep that offer current for a bit longer assuming you're truly interested as you claimed.

[RobFromGa]

illegals already pay the full embedded taxes in every product they buy here in this country. that won't change.

[robertpaulsen]

You're the one hung up on income tax, not me. My argument is in response to those who say we'll finally collect tax fron the criminals and the illegals under the Fair Tax:

Under the current tax scheme, both the drug dealer and you pay these hidden taxes when you buy something today, and that money ends up in the federal government's coffers.

Under the Fair Tax, both the drug dealer and you pay the Fair Tax on everthing you buy.

It's a wash. Under the Fair Tax, the drug dealer does not pay any more money to the federal government than he does today. Which was the only point I was trying to make.

(BUT, you no longer have to pay an income tax. That is true.)

[pigdog]

And any amount of wages (including fica) is part of the price of the product rather than just additional tax cost embedded. The product price, then has whatever the merchant's profit might be and it is this amount upon which income taxes are levied to the merchant. If this is a 15% profit margin and the merchant's effective income tax rate is 25%, then the "income tax contribution" by the purchaser is 3.75% under the income tax and it would be 23% at the marginal FairTax rate. Note that this is NOT the embedded tax, but merely the tax attributed to a consumer purchase. The embedded tax is a smaller amount yet.

"... all the taxes are really already being paid as a consumption tax, when you buy goods and services you pay the taxes embedded in the items ..."

Claiming there is some sizable amount of income tax paid by a consumer when a consumer purchases under the income tax is - as was shown just above - spurious. Claiming that the item would not be made if the consumer didn't buy it is also spurious. And no, your employer doesn't "pay" your taxes - he only withholds marginal income tax/fica rates and forwards them as the law requires (so you can't get your hands on them). You still file income tax forms and "pay" your own taxes.

[RobFromGa]

You are again proving that you know nothing about how a business works.

[pigdog]

The illegal makes a "tax contribution" to the seller's tax burden under the income tax which includes part of the tax on some portion of the seller's profit margin - which (as shown in #1096 is rather small. The amount due to embedded taxes is even smaller. Both types of "tax contributions" amount to far less than the 23% FairTax marginal rate.

"... illegals already pay the full embedded taxes in every product they buy here in this country. that won't change ..."

Indeed that will change - completely - as there will no longer BE embedded taxes under the FairTax, NONE!!!

[robertpaulsen]

"The effective tax rate you show for your "lawyer" at about 31% is roughly twice his actual probable rate - meaning that the example is clearly bogus."

You wish.

My self-employed lawyer is sending the federal government 15.3% of his gross. Right there is half! What are you talking about?! You're telling me he pays no federal income tax on $90,000? Of course you are -- how else would you come up with your outrageous and phony "effective" rates?

(pigdog: My "specific" average taxpayer in the 41st median quintile inclusively embeds 4 bazillion dollars but has an "effective" rate of 3.141592%, meaning he saves money under the Fair Tax as does everyone else in the U.S. and Puerto Rico.)

"There is no rationalizing that the illegal guy is paying the tax to the government since he'd be paying the lawyer's fee in any event, tax or not,"

True. But there IS a tax. And the illegal guy IS paying it. Not directly as he would under the Fair Tax, but indirectly. He IS paying taxes today.

"and if there were no illegal guy to pay the fee the lawyer would chase some other ambulances instead to buy his BMW"

No doubt. I could have structured the example with the lawyer having nine clients and then adding the illegal guy as his tenth client -- showing what the federal government receives with and without the illegal guy. But I figured you'd get the point I made. I forgot who I was posting to -- a 4th grader who looks at my example then scoffs at a lawyer making only $90,000.

"And in addition there is no saying that the lawyer is not "funning" Uncle and evading HIS taxes too"

Well, I guess he is since, according to you, he's paying nothing in federal income taxes to arrive at your "effective" rate of 15%.

"As for your "illegal alien" in #1088, there's no tax under either system on money sent "home" so that doesn't change (and is not the point anyway)."

If the average illegal (the general average illegal, not your specific average illegal) is sending the bulk of his money back to Mexico, the federal government will NOT be getting any more revenue from the illegals than we do today. That IS the point.

"and they're also not eligible for the prebate. That will certainly make it less attractive to come here illegally."

BWAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA! That's Mexican for BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

You're holding out a huge $500 per month carrot on a stick for all the illegals in the world to come and get it! Now, a fake social security number is WORTH something. They paid for one in the past when it had no cash value attached. Now it does, thanks to you!

[pigdog]

"... the drug dealer does not pay any more money to the federal government than he does today ...."

That is simply not the case since the illegal guy pays nothing to the government in taxes except what business he buys from might pay - if anything - on its profits. The amount of embedded tax in addition is even smaller yet. In neither event is the tax paid to the government, but to the business. Under the FairTax the illegal guy will for the first time pay his "tax contribution" at the same rate as does everyone else directly to the government ... and it will be much greater as well.

Your "point" is not correct.