By Godfrey, man!! You're RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!! Now we will have to rewrite all of our textbooks!!!!!
Posted on 05/01/2006 8:29:14 AM PDT by SirLinksalot
Perhaps the "evidence" presented by "Young Earth Creationists" is rejected because it is so patently - how shall I say this metaphorically - pulled out of their a**es? You think?
The theory of evolution is malleable enough to accomodate the presence of any kind of life form in proximity both in time and space to any other life form. For example, to find dinosaurs living at the same time and in the same place as humans does not seriously challenge the philsophy that all life is derived through common ancestry. The theory of evolution is a grand, tweakable mirage, requiring a faith more blind than the account of creation handed down to us through the biblical texts.
If I'm pinging you it's because either I spoke to you about this, think I spoke to you about this, or think you might be interested. ;-)
I am writing to you because I feel that your coverage of Dr. Schweitzer's dinosaur fossil research has been grossly unfair and misleading. AIG has misrepresented Dr. Schweitzer's research, slandered Dr. Schweitzer and her colleagues by accusing them of attempting to "explain away" their findings, and swept under the rug a follow-up paper published by Dr. Schweitzer which presents some inconvenient evidence indicating that birds and theropod dinosaurs are genetically related.
My letter is prompted by your March 6 article "The Scrambling Continues" regarding Dr. Schweitzer's discovery last year of an unusually well-preserved Tyrannosaurus rex fossil femur. When the fossil was retrieved the femur was broken. The internal cavity had an unusual porous appearance, so Dr. Schweitzer took some small fragments of the bone and soaked them in a solution that removed all of the minerals. It is important for the sake of accuracy to emphasize that the samples removed from the fossil were indeed hard and mineralized, not soft like raw marrow as some sources have stated (based I believe on your misleading commentary). After the minerals were removed the end products were tiny fragments (most less than 1/8 inch in diameter) of a network, with some fragments (or sections of a fragment) brittle and fragile while other fragments were spongy and flexible, resembling connective tissue and blood vessels. Under the microscope in the vessels Dr. Schweitzer could see structures resembling cells and with some type of internal structure. I'll quote the conclusion of Dr. Schweitzer's paper (1):
"The elucidation and modeling of processes resulting in soft-tissue preservation may form the basis for an avenue of research into the recovery and characterization of similar structures in other specimens, paving the way for micro- and molecular taphonomic investigations. Whether preservation is strictly morphological and the result of some kind of unknown geochemical replacement process or whether it extends to the subcellular and molecular levels is uncertain. However, we have identified protein fragments in extracted bone samples, some of which retain slight antigenicity (3). These data indicate that exceptional morphological preservation in some dinosaurian specimens may extend to the cellular level or beyond. If so, in addition to providing independent means of testing phylogenetic hypotheses about dinosaurs, applying molecular and analytical methods to well-preserved dinosaur specimens has important implications for elucidating preservational microenvironments and will contribute to our understanding of biogeochemical interactions at the microscopic and molecular levels that lead to fossilization."
AIG has reported this recovered material as strictly organic. This is a conclusion not warranted by the evidence, as a close reading of Dr. Schweitzer's original article and even a cursory reading of the accompanying commentary article (2) in the same issue of Science would show:
"Hendrik Poinar of McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario, cautions that looks can deceive: Nucleated protozoan cells have been found in 225-million-year-old amber, but geochemical tests revealed that the nuclei had been replaced with resin compounds. Even the resilience of the vessels may be deceptive. Flexible fossils of colonial marine organisms called graptolites have been recovered from 440-million-year-old rocks, but the original material--likely collagen--had not survived."
Some of the tougher biopolymers (especially chitin, lignins and proteins) may degrade very slowly in a fossil. Some arthropod fossils from 25 million years ago contain a small amount of chitin (3), although insects preserved in amber from about the same time period show complete diagenetic alteration (fossilization) in spite of the superb morphological preservation (4). Likewise, in spite of the excellent morphological preservation of this fossil Dr. Schweitzer clearly states that it is unknown at this time whether the actual original cellular and organic material is present. The preservation of intact organic material from a long-extinct species would be a wonderful scientific find, however it is most likely that Dr. Schweitzer and other molecular paleontologists will have to settle for studying the typical biomolecule degradation products found in fossils (5). It may actually be that some fraction of organic matter was preserved, and the supplemental material Dr. Schweitzer published indicates that this may be true as the sample extracts showed some affinity for antibodies against bovine osteocalcin and chicken type I collagen. This leads to the exciting possibility of extracting collagen or other structural proteins from the T. rex sample and comparing these to avian proteins to help clarify the evolutionary relationship between birds and theropod dinosaurs. However, it is unfortunately more likely that the sample will prove to be fully mineralized and lacking any utilizable amount of untransformed biomolecules. If this is so AIG will have egg in its face after its trumpeting of the T. rex sample as "unfossilized soft tissue" ("Still Soft and Stretchy," 25 March 2005).
When I read "The Scrambling Continues" it led me to see if any new papers on this fossil have been published since last year. Sure enough, my search revealed a Science paper from June 2005 (6). This paper is foreshadowed by a line in the initial paper: "In addition to the dense compact bone typical of theropods, this specimen contained regions of unusual bone tissue on the endosteal surface." I'll quote from the June paper:
"The location, origin, morphology, and microstructure of the new T. rex tissues support homology with ratite MB [medullary bone]. The T. rex tissues line the medullary cavities of both femora of MOR 1125, suggesting an organismal response. The tissues are similar in distribution to those of extant ratites, being more extensive in proximal regions of the bone. They are clearly endosteal in origin, and the microstructure with large vascular sinuses is consistent with the function of MB as a rapidly deposited and easily mobilized calcium source. The random, woven character indicates rapidly deposited, younger bone. Finally, the robustly supported relationship between theropods and extant birds (15–18, 24, 25) permits the application of phylogenetic inference to support the identification of these tissues (26, 27)."
Medullary bone is a particular type of bone laid down in the endosteal cavities of female birds to allow storage and rapid mobilization of calcium for egg-laying. This type of bone has only been found in birds, so its discovery in a dinosaur fossil ought to be noteworthy to anyone interested in science. This uniquely avian trait in T. rex adds another piece of evidence supporting the evolutionary origin of birds from theropod dinosaurs. I'm certain that your researchers must have run across this article while checking to see if Dr. Schweitzer had published a follow-up paper. Your failure to mention this article's findings in your rather snide article indicates to me that AIG is not so much interested in the pursuit of knowledge as the promulgation of anti-evolutionary propaganda.
Now I have the benefit of prior knowledge of your likely response to this finding of medullary bone in a dinosaur. I mentioned my complaints about your coverage to a young-earth creationist, and he emailed you asking about this. He shared with me your response, which was that medullary bone was indeed found in other species besides birds, providing these links as support: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1790209&dopt=Abstract, http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/saortho/chapter_53/53mast.htm. These links can be easily found by either searching Google for "medullary bone" and ignoring the multiple hits saying it is uniquely avian or by searching for "medullary bone" and excluding "avian" and "bird." The first example given is actually a misunderstanding by your staff member of basic bone growth--in a young mammal the interior of the bone is filled with spongy bone which recedes to leave a medullary cavity as the bone grows. The second example is talking about the medullary cavity and adjacent structures--it describes "medullary bone infarct," which usually occurs in the medullary cavity near the end of a long bone and results in bone marrow and trabecular bone necrosis. Both of these instances have nothing to do with avian medullary bone. Genuine medullary bone is produced by a genetically encoded organismal response to gonadal hormones in an adult female bird, leading to the deposition of bone in the medullary cavity. The gross and microscopic appearance of medullary bone is unique, and the structural composition is quite different from other types of bone (7). Indeed, osteoblasts isolated from hen medullary bone show different expression patterns of genes than osteoblasts isolated from rats, indicating that avian medullary osteoblasts are uniquely differentiated and the process of medullary bone deposition is different than mammalian bone formation (8). The fossilized bone recovered from this T. rex show unequivocal avian medullary bone, and pose quite a conundrum for those who deny evolutionary relationships.
I can hardly expect AIG to suddenly embrace an old earth and common descent. However, I'm sure that AIG would want to be seen as a trustworthy organization that can be relied upon to present the facts accurately. In light of this I am requesting that you publish a correction stating that the T. rex fossil discovered was extensively fossilized, did not have a "raw" appearance, and that the flexible fragments recovered are tiny (on the order of 1/8 inch). Additionally I request an acknowledgment of the existence of Dr. Schweitzer's paper reporting the discovery of avian medullary bone in the T. rex fossil. Finally, I request that my letter in whole be published on your site. These steps will go far towards correcting AIG's superficial coverage of Dr. Schweitzer's findings.
Thank you for your attention to these matters.
ping
So you believe soft tissue can survive millions of years? LOL
Meanwhile, Schweitzer’s research has been hijacked by “young earth” creationists, who insist that dinosaur soft tissue couldn’t possibly survive millions of years. They claim her discoveries support their belief, based on their interpretation of Genesis, that the earth is only a few thousand years old. Of course, it’s not unusual for a paleontologist to differ with creationists. But when creationists misrepresent Schweitzer’s data, she takes it personally: she describes herself as “a complete and total Christian.” On a shelf in her office is a plaque bearing an Old Testament verse: “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”
...
young-earth creationists also see Schweitzer’s work as revolutionary, but in an entirely different way. They first seized upon Schweitzer’s work after she wrote an article for the popular science magazine Earth in 1997 about possible red blood cells in her dinosaur specimens. Creation magazine claimed that Schweitzer’s research was “powerful testimony against the whole idea of dinosaurs living millions of years ago. It speaks volumes for the Bible’s account of a recent creation.”
This drives Schweitzer crazy. Geologists have established that the Hell Creek Formation, where B. rex was found, is 68 million years old, and so are the bones buried in it. She’s horrified that some Christians accuse her of hiding the true meaning of her data. “They treat you really bad,” she says. “They twist your words and they manipulate your data.” For her, science and religion represent two different ways of looking at the world; invoking the hand of God to explain natural phenomena breaks the rules of science. After all, she says, what God asks is faith, not evidence. “If you have all this evidence and proof positive that God exists, you don’t need faith. I think he kind of designed it so that we’d never be able to prove his existence. And I think that’s really cool.”
The posts on this very thread serve to corroborate Schweitzer's words.
(...soup spewed over the PC...)
ROFLMAO!
(Obligatory Helen pix, please....)
Speaking of Christians hi-jacking a theory, isn't the idea in your post hi-jacking the thread? ;-)
By Godfrey, man!! You're RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!! Now we will have to rewrite all of our textbooks!!!!!
TEACHING AND RESEARCH AREAS
Molecular Paleontology: Preservation and detection of original molecular fragments in well preserved fossil specimens
Molecular diagenesis and taphonomy: The examination of exceptionally well preserved fossils-those with soft tissues, color patterns, or original hard-part mineralogy or molecular signals preserved. Why are they preserved that way, and what are the biogeochemical conditions that led to such preservation?
Evolution of physiological and reproductive strategies in dinosaurs and their bird descendants. Were dinosaurs warm-blooded, cold-blooded or something in-between?
Astrobiology: Can we use the tools of molecular paleontology to detect biomarkers not only in fossils but also in extraterrestrial samples? Did life never evolve on other planets? Did it evolve then go extinct? Or is it thriving now?
SELECTED PUBLICATIONS:
Schweitzer MH, Wittmeyer JL, Horner JR. 2005. Gender-specific reproductive tissue in ratites and Tyrannosaurus rex. Science 308:1456-1460.
Schweitzer MH, Wittmeyer JL, Horner JR, Toporski JB. 2005. Soft Tissue Vessels and Cellular Preservation in Tyrannosaurus rex. Science 307: 1952-1955.
Avci, R., M. Schweitzer, R. D. Boyd, J. Wittmeyer, F. Teran Arce, J. O. Calvo. 2005. Preservation of bone collagen from the late Cretaceous period, studied by immunolocalization and atomic force microscopy. Langmuir 21(8):3584 – 3590.
Schweitzer MH, LM Chiappe, AC Garrido, JM Lowenstein, SH Pincus. Molecular preservation in Late Cretaceous sauropod dinosaur eggshells. Proc. R. Soc. Lond. B. 272:775-784.
Channing, A, MH Schweitzer, JR Horner, T McEneaney. 2005. Novel preservation of a Pleistocene bird. Proc. R. Soc. Lond. B. 272:905-911.
Schweitzer MH. 2003. The future of molecular paleontology. Paleontologica Electronica 5(2).
Schweitzer MH, CL Hill, JM Asara, WS Lane, SH PIncus, 2002. Identification of immunoreactive material in mammoth fossils. Journal of Molecular Evolution, 55:696-705.
Chin K, DA Eberth, MH Schweitzer, TA Rando, WJ Sloboda, JR Horner. 2003. Remarkable preservation of muscle tissue within a tyrannosaurid coprolite. Palaios, 18: 287-293.
Jackson, FD, MH Schweitzer, JG Schmitt. 2002. Dinosaur eggshell study using Scanning Electron Microscopy. Scanning, 24:217-223.
Schweitzer MH, and CL Marshall. 2001. A molecular model for the evolution of endothermy in the theropod-bird lineage. Journal of Experimental Zoology (Mol. Devel. Evol.) 291:317-338.
Schweitzer MH, FD Jackson, LM Chiappe, JO Calvo, DE Rubilar. 2001. Late Cretaceous avian eggs with embryos from Argentina. Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology. 22(1):191-195.
http://www.meas.ncsu.edu/faculty/schweitzer/schweitzer.htm
This insect is three times as old as the dinosaur being discussed:
Wow...You really don't give a damned about truth do you? Your statement sort of says it all... so long as we win in the end... even if it means truth loses? You know, throughout history there are times when truth loses out in the short term to people just like you.
There are few greater evils than those who want to stomp out the search for truth. Tell me what does it feel like to be on the side of evil? What is it like to want to strip children of their intellect and force them to follow your fairy tale beliefs? What is it like to be a minion of those who stamp out facts that which they find inconvenient and subversive?
Tell me... if you had real political power in this country would you decide to destroy the fossils we have because they give "subversive" thoughts? From the tone of your last message that is what it sounds like...That such subversive science cannot be continued... so destroy all fossils so such evil Darwinist ideas never plague mankind again. Yes... I see you and your ilk doing just that. I mean... you said it best right? "Just so long as we winin the end".
I was wrong when I called you a member of a cult. You are much worse than that.
I once found a fully grown Tyranasaurous Rex trapped in amber, but The USPS lost it when I shipped it home.
Well, I learned something (actually quite a bit) from your letter.
Anyone making bets as to who else learned and who choses to obfucate?
"Consider that insects can be found perfectly preserved in amber millions of years older than these dinosaur fossils."
Bingo! It all depends on the conditions under which the dead animal was preserved. This is pretty exciting stuff, IMO.
So you believe soft tissue can survive millions of years?Isn't a Twinkie considered soft tissue?
I rest my case.
Anyone making bets as to who else learned and who choses to obfucate?"
Dude, before casting stones you ought to do something about your home page. Its all jumbled together without much of a seeming pattern or purpose....kind of like the fossils at Hell's Creek... or any other strata for that matter...
How do you know how old it is? And would it be in the same condition encased in amber as encased in bone?
Me too.
...although insects preserved in amber from about the same time period show complete diagenetic alteration (fossilization) in spite of the superb morphological preservation...
So the image of the Devonian insect preserved in amber would likely be completely fossilized.
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