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To: pby
It is important to not take the verse you sited out of context. In this example, Christ was addressing the prophesies of Moses. Moses prophesied a number of times about the coming of the Messiah. In the book of John, Christ is stating that if they believe Moses's prophesy, then they would believe Jesus was the fulfillment of that prophesy. There was a very important reason was Jesus was testifying about the prophesies of Moses. These prophesies came for the Torah, in which the Jewish law was given. With the sacrifice of Christ, salvation was no longer dependent upon that law, but upon acceptance of Christ as God's Son. The prophesies of Moses gave legitimacy to Christ's claim. The first prophesy about the Messiah is Genesis 3:15. It is after the account of creation. It is important also to note that in the verse you referenced, Christ focus was on salvation thru Him, not the manner of creation.

Here are a number of other verses written by Moses about Jesus.

(Genesis 12:2-3, Genesis 26:3-5, Genesis 49:10, Numbers 24:17,19, Deuteronomy 18:18-19)



Now, at the beginning of the book of John, there is this reference to Christ.

John 1
The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

I think believing Moses on all accounts though is correct. Which part of Genesis am I not believing?

Here is one that supports "spoken" into existence.

Psalm 33:6
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made,
their starry host by the breath of his mouth.

Now, what does spoken into existence look like? Please explain this process. I have no doubt that God spoke his creation into existence. When God spoke them into existence did they spontaneously appear? If so, is what's spontaneous to God also spontaneous to us? Could spoken into existence be the start of a process that is spontaneous to God, but not to man? Time is irrelevant to him.

"In many separate revelations---each of which set forth a portion of the Truth---and in different ways God spoke of old to [our] forefathers in and by the prophets, [But] in the last of these days He has spoken to us in [the person of a] Son, Whom He appointed Heir and lawful Owner of all things, also by and through Whom He created the worlds and the reaches of space and the ages of time---(that is) He made, produced, built, operated and arranged them in order. He is the sole expression of the glory of God---the Light-being, the out-raying or radiance of the divine---and He is the perfect imprint and very image of [God's] nature, upholding and maintaining and guiding and propelling the universe by His mighty word of power..." (Hebrews 1:1-3.

God spoke of old to our forefathers, in and by the prophets. Pretty interesting. What is "of old"? A six day creation wouldn't have been that long ago, certainly not to God. The rest of this verse is mighty powerful in giving insight into the scope of creation. Job 38 is also similar in that respect.


"Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted a vineyard, and set a hedge around it, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into another country. When the season of fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants, to get his fruit; and the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the same to them. Afterward he sent his son to them, saying, `They will respect my son.' But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, `This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.' And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death, and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons." Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the scriptures: `The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it." (Matthew 21:33-43)

It is believed that Christ refers to a new creation for those that accept him as their savior.

One of my absolute favorites in the New Testament is Romans 1:20

20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

God's invisible qualities being understood from what has been made? Could that be nature? His invisible qualities? If God created nature, which I believe He did, He could work apart from it if he wished. But, it is His tool, so why should He need to, unless He just wanted to. But, perhaps He manipulates nature without defying natural law. That would be invisible.

Here are other verses that mention creation. I don't see anything that fills in further detail as to how.

Psalms 90:2
2 Before the mountains were born
or you brought forth the earth and the world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

Nehemiah 9:6
6 You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.

2 Chronicles 2:12

12 And Hiram added:
"Praise be to the LORD, the God of Israel, who made heaven and earth! He has given King David a wise son, endowed with intelligence and discernment, who will build a temple for the LORD and a palace for himself.

2 Kings 19;15
15 And Hezekiah prayed to the LORD : "O LORD, God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

My point is this. I have no doubt that the universe, and us are God's creation. But, the manner is not spelled out like a text manual. I think Christians must be very careful in passing judgment on others based on the interpretation of the manner of creation. The Bible in a very literal sense, does not speak of the exact manner. This is not, "not knowing what my Bible says". I assure you, I do! I get very frustrated with the many verses taken out of context to support a belief that the verse was not addressing. I get rather suspicious that many of these misrepresentations, or interpretations, are passed down from one generation to the next and supported by saying, "look here." Then pointing out a verse that in context is not addressing that specific point.
In my opinion, this is a misrepresentation of the Bible. I do not want to be responsible for misrepresenting God's word out of my need to be right. It is quite possible that the YEC interpretation of Genesis is correct. It is also possible that a theist interpretation is correct. Only the Creator knows. This is not claiming that Genesis is a parable either. It is not. I have also read that I simply do not believe my Bible, which I do. My view is that Genesis is 100 percent true in it's outline of creation. If it were more than an outline, it would be much longer than 37 sentences. If the manner of creation were relevant to salvation, the exact manner would be spelled out.
384 posted on 04/27/2006 4:51:43 PM PDT by Conservative Texan Mom (Some people say I'm stubborn, when it's usually just that I'm right.)
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To: Conservative Texan Mom
What day was Adam created on and how old was Adam when he died?

Do you believe what the Bible says about those two questions?

561 posted on 04/28/2006 6:13:40 AM PDT by pby
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