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To: Californiajones
You are offering up a false dichotomy:

Either the story of Jesus rising from the dead is true, or His disciples knew that they were going to their deaths for a lie.

There are many other possibilities, the moment you step away from the Bible being an inerrant document. The truth of the record in the Bible is a matter of faith.

Religious people of all faiths going to their deaths has been common down the ages. Given the different myths that they all believed clearly most of them were deluded, as you right now believe muslim suicide bombers to be deluded.

1,602 posted on 02/16/2006 12:29:22 AM PST by Thatcherite (More abrasive blackguard than SeaLion or ModernMan)
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To: Thatcherite
No, I'm not offering up a false dichotomy.

You are not understanding the context.

The disciples knew Jesus personally.

They were eyewitnesses to the things that He said and did.

They would know whether or not Jesus's claims as the Son of God were true or not -- because they would know if He actually healed or was raised from the Dead.

Therefore, if they went to their deaths voluntarily for the sake of His name,
it is proof that they believed that Jesus was who He said He was and they were willing to die for what they knew, firsthand, to be true.

Unless you are saying that somehow Jesus fooled even those men who were closest to Him?

Even Josephus, the writer who wrote of Jesus outside of the Bible, wondered if Jesus wasn't the miracle worker He said He was. And Josephus didn't know Jesus.

So, it is not a false dichotomy. It is evidence, in their own blood, of eyewitness testimony -- the purest legal form of testimony one can ask for.

Suicide bombers, unless they are sixteen hundred years old, cannot make the same claim because they have no idea if Mohammad actually was who He said He was from first hand experience. And anyway, that analogy is false, too, because Jesus would NEVER tell His disciples to murder the innocent. Jesus' disciples were tortured and killed because of their faith. They didn't seek ways to kill their "enemies" with their own deaths, they were probably praying for their "enemies" as they died.
1,630 posted on 02/16/2006 11:31:27 AM PST by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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To: Thatcherite
Hope I'm putting your objections to the evidence of the birth life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ by saying one last time, that a man may mistakenly go to his death for a false religious idea (seventytwovirgins - Not).

I'm not saying this doesn't happen. I does.

BUT IT NEVER DOES WHEN THE MAN KNOWS THAT WHAT HE IS GOING TO GO TO HIS DEATH FOR IS A LIE.

The disciples knew Jesus on a first hand, hand shake basis.

Suicide bombers never met Mohammad.

How much more clear does this have to be?
2,261 posted on 02/23/2006 1:29:53 AM PST by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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