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1 posted on 11/17/2005 11:27:26 AM PST by Nicholas Conradin
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To: Nicholas Conradin
The problem with Intelligent Design is not that it is false; not that the arguments in its favor reduce to smoke and mirrors; and not that it's defenders are disingenuous or even duplicitous. The problem with Intelligent Design is that it is dumb.

Why be picky? I'm marking down "all of the above"!

2 posted on 11/17/2005 11:31:06 AM PST by AntiGuv (™)
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To: Nicholas Conradin
I can't admire the intellectual horsepower of any self styled super-intellect who needs to use the word "dumb" to criticise a competing theory in the very first paragraph!
Why waste time with the rest of it?
3 posted on 11/17/2005 11:34:42 AM PST by Publius6961 (The IQ of California voters is about 420........... .............cumulatively)
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To: Nicholas Conradin
The problem with Intelligent Design is that it is dumb.

Why write a lengthy essay when this says it all?

4 posted on 11/17/2005 11:37:37 AM PST by Rudder
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To: Nicholas Conradin

This is as far as I got before "switching channels": "The problem with Intelligent Design is that it is dumb....."


6 posted on 11/17/2005 11:38:20 AM PST by lilylangtree
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To: Nicholas Conradin

Once upon a time, humans could not explain thunder, lightning and other natural phenomenons, and so humans invented 'gods' to explain them.

Science has explained so many of these phenomenons, and now people look at cultures that still use 'gods' to explain them as 'inferior' or 'primitive'.

Yet, now those 'superior' cultures invoke the same principle when they cannot explain the formation of eyes or mitochondria. Only, instead of 'gods', the word is 'intelligent design'.

How fascinating.


7 posted on 11/17/2005 11:40:59 AM PST by razoroccam (Then in the name of Allah, they will let loose the Germs of War (http://www.booksurge.com))
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To: Nicholas Conradin

This is a dumb argument, if I may borrow the author's words. He repeatedly uses the word "dumb" because he lacks an argument.

He never comes to grips with any of the scientific or statistical arguments that people like Michael Behe have presented. Instead, his entire case is, basically, that religion must be banished from science because . . . because it must!

Natural theology is right out, because of that word "theology." And "philosophy" is right out, too.

Well, I have news for him. The common name for science in the early modern period, when science and technology really took off, was "natural philosophy." Philosophy means love of wisdom and involves searching for truth. Natural philosophy involves searching for the secrets of nature.

Not for nothing does Civilization III require the discovery of Theology before you get any Education or Science. In the development of the western world and western science, theology played a key role, because it taught (contrary to the beliefs of most prior religions) that the world is a rational place, that people have free will, and that God welcomes discovery.


8 posted on 11/17/2005 11:41:35 AM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Nicholas Conradin

ID is the biological equivalent of the fine tuned universe argument for the existence of God found in philosophy.


11 posted on 11/17/2005 11:44:24 AM PST by bethelgrad (for God, country, the Marine Corps, and now the Navy Chaplain Corps OOH RAH!)
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To: Nicholas Conradin
Teilhard's cosmology does not close off questions; it opens them up.

This is the single biggest problem I have with ID proponents: They close off questions about their theory.

13 posted on 11/17/2005 11:49:06 AM PST by Wolfstar (The stakes in the global war on terror are too high for politicians to throw out false charges.)
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To: Nicholas Conradin

Teilhard was one of those present at the discovery of the famous Piltown fraud. Oddly enough, even when it was being touted as a great discovery, Teilhard never mentioned it in his own writings. One wonders...


14 posted on 11/17/2005 11:52:23 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: Nicholas Conradin; All

>>what it is on to has no connection and does no meaningful work in biology (or physics).

Really? No connection? Science tries to answer the "why" and "how" questions about things... Why and how things happen is not disconnected or unmeaningful -- no more than the theory of evolution is...

Why and how is very fundamental biological question, why and how there is life. The theory of evolution is just one explanation of the how and why. "Intelligent Design" is just one more explanation..

>>However, and more significantly, ID is dumb philosophy.

I agree that there are many philisophical overtones in what is known as "Intelligent design" and that a great phrase has been coopted by evangelical fundamentalists in anachronistic attempts to explain the orgin of all life. This is a most unfortunate event, since the phrase is very meaningful appliciable to biology.


16 posted on 11/17/2005 11:55:21 AM PST by 1stFreedom (zx1)
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To: Nicholas Conradin
===> Placemarker <===
17 posted on 11/17/2005 11:55:23 AM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Nicholas Conradin
metaphysical naturalism and global non-naturalism

Well, I don't have a clue as to what either of these big words means, so I must be one of those dumb people he is talking about. It must be nice to be smart enough to understand how life began and how the universe came into being. I guess I'll just go back to reading my comic books now.

23 posted on 11/17/2005 11:58:01 AM PST by layman (Card Carrying Infidel)
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To: Nicholas Conradin

I wouldn't say ID is necessarily theology.

What if the designers were visitors from space?

Anyway, calling something "dumb" isn't really a valid argument against it.


24 posted on 11/17/2005 11:58:28 AM PST by Pessimist
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To: Nicholas Conradin
Consider one of the most fully developed alternative evolutionary cosmologies; that of Teilhard de Chardin.

Does anyone here remember James Lovelock and the Gaia Hypothesis?

I mention it because the writings of Teilhard de Chardin were cited therein as a natural philosophy bolstering the Gaia concept.

To have him appear in the discussion of ID is a tie that binds the notion of Gaia with ID, for which I see a very strong link.

26 posted on 11/17/2005 11:59:25 AM PST by Nicholas Conradin (If you are not disquieted by "One nation under God," try "One nation under Allah.")
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To: Nicholas Conradin
I am shocked that a tenured professor as self assured as this writer seems would spew such non-sensible drivel about one philosophy over another. Calling a philosophy dumb is akin to calling a joke "not funny."

Thanks for your opinion, righteous one. Thanks also for citing some philosophy to support your "dumb" assertion of another philosophy.

I would argue some intelligent point with the author, but I find none that he has made. Consequently, he should better understand metaphysics.
35 posted on 11/17/2005 12:06:34 PM PST by Tenacious 1 (Dems: "It can't be done" Reps. "Move, we'll find a way or make a way. It has to be done!")
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To: Nicholas Conradin
And evolutionary theory is largely materialist dogma.

The question is, which position is more plausible? Another question is, who gets to decide which philosophical positions are presented as dogma in gov't schools? The most important question regarding the teaching of evolutionary theory is, who has the last word regarding schooling, the gov't or parents?

36 posted on 11/17/2005 12:07:00 PM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Nicholas Conradin

I would suggest that the author dispense with language that makes him sound like a typical Dim trying to argue a point and maybe do a little scientific research on ID. How? How about taking the Bible apart, passage by passage and trying to prove what it says is either right or wrong. Use its words as a theory and see how it holds up. Enough rights, with insufficient wrongs gives credence to what it says. Isn't that how the Evolutionists and other scientists do it? Start with a theory and take it apart as far as possible to test it?


37 posted on 11/17/2005 12:07:21 PM PST by trebb ("I am the way... no one comes to the Father, but by me..." - Jesus in John 14:6 (RSV))
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To: Nicholas Conradin

Intelligent Design does not have any evidence or merits to support its claim, instead all it stands for is its emotional rhetoric against evolution.


54 posted on 11/17/2005 12:28:44 PM PST by sagar
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To: Nicholas Conradin

Let me simplify this article for you all.

He's doing the usual liberal ploy of calling something he disagrees with dumb.

He then uses lots of big words to explain rather simple concepts for a while.

After that he redefines ID into something narrower and rather absurd.

He then demonstrates why this absurd thing that he calls ID is dumb.

It's called a strawman argument.

Intelligent design is a theory that the world was created by intelligent design.

It is not in conflict with natural science.

Intelligent design's real weakness is that it simply cannot be disproven.

It's weakness is that it's a possible anser to almost anything. Why is the sky blue? Because it was designed that way? Maybe. It's blue because of the way the atmosphere bends light, but the universe could have been designed so that the atmosphere bends light.

ID is an theroy that provides an answer that if true, cannot be confirmed, and doesn't provide a complete understanding.

However, if you want to talk about the origin of the universe, it's hard to find an answer other than ID because in our understanding of nature, things come from somewhere. So where did the universe come from? The answer is we don't know. Some will suggest that the answer is that it was created.

We cannot prove that it was created. Therefore belief that it is created is a matter of faith.

Faith is not stupid. However not understanding that you are accepting something based of faith could be considered stupid.

Everyone has faith in something. However, some people are quick to call other people's faith stupid, but are unable to grasp that they themselves assume much based on faith.


67 posted on 11/17/2005 12:41:56 PM PST by untrained skeptic
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To: Nicholas Conradin

Finally someone shows up on a Crevo thread who actually understands philosophy and argues cogently and correctly that ID is just metaphysics trying to pass itself off as science.

Oh, and 'dumb' metaphysics at that.


70 posted on 11/17/2005 12:45:37 PM PST by beaver fever
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