Why Terri Schiavo will die tomorrow, the day Jesus Christ died (stop the satanic ritual murder!!!)

self, you ^ | March 24

[Truth666]

It's obvious that the martyrdom of Terri Schiavo is a satanic ritual. It's supposed to culminate tomorrow, day Jesus Christ died.
I'm sure many of you also have understood it. Instead of continuing listing the details, I will let you do it yourselves.

[tiamat]

I think trinity_tx has one...

[churchillbuff]

Ahem. You have not read any court documents I gather.

The court documents can't erase what is happening today: The deliberate starvation of a woman because she is brain damaged. Even if she IS PVS, there is no justification for killing her. There are thousands of people in her situation around the country. Are we going to kill them all? And then, we'll kill people who are a bit less brain-damaged, and then those who are quadraplegic? Stuff you court documents where the sun doesn't shine. The court has ordered a Nazi-like "euthanasia" death of a woman BECAUSE SHE IS DISABLED. That is wrong, and your "court documents" can't change that.

[BigSkyFreeper]

ROFL!!! That hat is so funny!!

[Trinity_Tx]

awww... thank you!

But, just when things get going strong, I go and hurt myself. lol I'm either in too much pain to type or too wiped out on drugs. :|

You've done an awesome, awesome job carrying the torch - making the difference in every thread you've touched. Invaluable effort.

[Long Cut]

Randall Terry (who is the LAST person to lecture anyone about adultery, unless it is to teach pointers) is a disgrace.

He used the Schindlers, yoking their daughter to his prolife chariot to pull it.

Then the little tyrant tried to dictate to the entire US frickin' government, and almost suceeded, except the polls came out. He'll have to settle for dealing the GOP a body blow.

[Former Military Chick]

Just want to support your bump for Trinity_Tex. This might help as well!

Trinity_Tx

Since Oct 30, 2003

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After cutting through all the rhetoric, wild rumors and speculation become "fact", just what is the central issue in the Terri Schiavo case?

If you want to understand the bottom-line, most basic facts of the case and ruling, you must read the 6 documents linked to below. An hour of reading.

First, simply understand that, under Florida law, as approved by the US Supreme Court in Cruzan, (in which they gave states the right to determine what level of evidence was necessary to determine a patient's wishes) the deciding issue is whether or not there is clear and convincing evidence that Terri would or wouldn't want to be maintained on a feeding tube. It is not about determining her quality of life. It is simply a matter of a patient's ability to refuse treatment, whether by oral or written statements made while they were lucid.


As stated in 2001, by the Florida 2nd District Court of appeals in their support of the foundation ruling (linked to below, they found that there was clear and convincing evidence that she wouldn't want the tube to remain.

They also noted that Michael did not make the decision - he asked the court to listen to both sides and for the court to take his role in this matter of her tube. He did not have to do that. He could have forced he parents to challenge his legal decision from a less powerful position.



http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder02-00.pdf
Greer's decision that there was clear and convincing evidence she would not want the tube.

Then, read the second district's very informative affirmation of his ruling:
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/2dcaorder01-01.txt



Then, read:
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder11-02.txt
Greer's ruling in 2002 after the 5 doctor trial to see if there were any hope for her to improve.

http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/2D02-5394.pdf
The Second district court of appeals' (interesting) ruling in support of his decision.

(Her parents' attorneys picked really bad doctors IMO. This was their best chance, and they shouldn't have gotten only alternative medicine docs who were so easily impeached at trial. I posted more on that last night.)


Finally, this excellent, official time line of events, including links to other court decisions:
http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/timeline.htm

And the Wolfson Report, which gives the most thorough history:
http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/wolfson%27s%20report.pdf
(Her parents asked him to be re-instated. Both sides trusted him. he's the main voice of sanity here, I think.


Anyway, that's my contribution. No one can even begin to understand the case without reading at least those 6 links, IMO.

I have a ton more, but those are the heart of it.

I know this is long, but I promise it is the shortest trip to informing yourself on the critical basics.

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(As for my personal opinion, I think they should have followed the advice of Wolfson in his report.)

Extra Links


Cruzan decision
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=497&invol=261

More on Cruzan:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/cruzan.html

Terri's medical discharge summary:
http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/Humana%20Discharge%20Summary%20050990.pdf

Report of Guardian ad litem Richard Pearse, who was relieved after 6 months when it was discovered that he had a previously stated personal objections to legalizing the removal of patient feeding tubes:
http://www.hospicepatients.org/richard-pearse-jr-12-29-98-report-of-guardianadlitem-re-terri-schiavo.pdf

Greer's denial of bone scan - the doctors who actually saw Terri, and the radiologist who did follow-up x-rays saw nothing suspicious.
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder11-02-scan.pdf

Greer's finding that Carla Iyer and others were not credible:
http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/Order%20Denying%20Pet%20Immed%20Ther%20091703.pdf

Description of the complete 4 hours of video:
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/11/10/Tampabay/Schiavo_tapes__snippe.shtml

Description of the testimony at the 2000 trial to determine Terri's wishes.
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/11/08/Tampabay/Schiavo_s_wishes_reca.shtml

NATIONAL ENQUIRER 1998 featuring Dr. William Hammesfahr (he has ads there)
http://www.floridaneurologicalinstitute.com/national_enquirer_1998.htm

CT scan of Ms. Schiavo's brain.

Normal brain scan image. (If you have a larger one, I'd love a link to it.)

More links at http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html
and http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo_project.htm


I'll try to upload the transcripts of the 2002 trial sometime tonight or tomorrow.

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*The only 2 doctors in the last 15 years (including 9 neurologists) who said she wasn't PVS after actually seeing her in person were both alternative medicine docs hired by her parents:

- A radiologist (who couldn't accurately define PVS or distinguish it from coma in the trial)

- the neurologist, Hammesfahr, who said she wasn't PVS even before he examined her, and has very little credibility after his intentionally misleading claims of a number of things - like being a Nobel prize nominee, for just one example.

When it comes to recovery, actually coma patients are much better off. They can wake up years later and have great recovery.

When someone comes out of a coma, but remains uncommunicative, the prognosis depends on the age of the patient, and what caused their injury. Children and those with traumatic head injuries have a better prognosis than those with an anoxic injury.

Patients who show no signs of consciousness after their eyes open usually fit the criteria for the vegetative state(VS). Persistent vegetative state (PVS) is a prognostic term that refers to a chronic condition in which basic arousal (i.e., wakefulness) and life-sustaining functions (e.g., respiration, blood pressure) are generally intact, despite the absence of behavioral signs of meaningful interaction with the environment. The American Academy of Neurology recently adopted the position that the VS should be termed "persistent" at 1 month, and considered "permanent" after 3 months following non traumatic causes of unconsciousness and after 12 months following traumatic injury [27]. However, rare exceptions to this have been cited. Merck

(Note: I couldn't place Trinity, Tx on a map. I chose this nick for other reasons. Sorry for the confusion.)


... Freeperette since 1999, just lurked or posted under Husband's account until I created my own on Oct 9, 2000...Changed nicks in 2003 for reasons of personal privacy.



Stay at home mother, homeschooler, moderate libertarian/conservative, depending on the issue...

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A few of my favorite quotes:

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Libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Men gladly believe that which they wish for.
-Julius Caesar

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"The problem with the world is the fools and fanatics are so sure of themselves, and wise people are full of doubts."
-Bertrand Russell

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"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."
-Thomas Jefferson

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.
It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.
The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-C. S. Lewis

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"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster

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"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
-Stephen Roberts

Note: I'm not an Atheist... Just an agnostic still searching for the truth...

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone circling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved. >br>Origin of Species http://www.literature.org/authors/darwin-charles/the-origin-of-species-6th-edition/chapter-15.html
Answering certain types of people is futile. Whether or not you win intellectually, they will draw it out with mis-quoting, twisting, outright lies, and perjorative comments. Let them have the last word, as yours are on the record for reasonable people to judge.
Difficilis facilis, iucundus acerbus es idem:
nec tecum possum vivere nec sine te.
Difficult and easy, delightful and severe, you are the same:
I am neither able to live with you nor without you.
Most of our so-called reasoning consists in finding arguments for going on believin as we already do
"It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.
...those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-C. S. Lewis

[Dog Gone]

Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but I just don't recognize many of the posters who are dishing out unbelievable venom on the Terri threads. Maybe they're recent signups.

But good grief, when I've even mentioned legal deficiencies in the pleadings of the Schindler's attorneys, I've had my head bitten off by some.

Discussion isn't important to them, only cheerleading and calls for illegal and unconstitutional acts. It's an embarrassment to this forum.

I'm not saying that all of Terri's supporters are like that. Most aren't. WAY too many are.

[BigSkyFreeper]

Not too sure about Randall Terry's hairdo but his face reminds me of Charles Nelson Reilly.

[gentlestrength]

"judge after judge refuses to review the case it is because it has been scrutinized up the koozaah already"

You make the logical fallacy of equating greater numbers with therefore them necessarily having greater truth. If a HUNDRED people examine it, doesn't mean that if something comes to the fore which changes things, that truth can't therefore be known, and the original 100 be shown to be in error.

Not all cases are fought like this one. There are errors brought out here in time, things which have not been treated with due process, such as: Terri never having her OWN attorney, but through Michael. Not having current medical testing. Her husband having another woman and kids since 1996. We should support life and morality and justice, and also mercy.

"To him who has no mercy, will no mercy be shown."

[Chad Fairbanks]

I don't know why you're posting that to me, as if I said something about "court documents" because I didn't.

All I've really had to say is basically "I don't want to see an innocent woman die, but just for the record she isn't Jesus Christ" and tried to remain somewhat rational...

So, whatever... they ain't MY "court documents". Thanks, though.

[Poohbah]

Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but I just don't recognize many of the posters who are dishing out unbelievable venom on the Terri threads. Maybe they're recent signups.

There seems to be a pattern of folks who signed up in Fall 2004 being the most venomous.

But good grief, when I've even mentioned legal deficiencies in the pleadings of the Schindler's attorneys, I've had my head bitten off by some.

You're not "maintaining the fiction."

Discussion isn't important to them, only cheerleading and calls for illegal and unconstitutional acts. It's an embarrassment to this forum.

My pet nightmare: that some of this talk is not mere chest-thumping, but lousy OPSEC & COMSEC--i.e., that some of these folks are using FReepmail as a covert communications channel for planning violence. I'm not saying that all of Terri's supporters are like that. Most aren't. WAY too many are.

[Peach]

I don't recognize a lot of posters either and I was so busy dodging bullets and getting new freepmails and pings every five seconds I never took the time to look.

But from hereon out, I think I will take the time.

When this initially started, I didn't have a strong position either way and was terribly torn about it all. So without taking a position, I would correct people who posted incorrect things.

Like, Terri never had a CAT scan, Terri was never seen by a neurologist, etc. I used court documents and links to prove my point.

I was branded a Nazi immediately. It was incredible. And a very ugly experience I won't soon forget.

But tonight's thread has heartened me somewhat that there's some sanity left on FR.

[Howlin]

Is it just me, or does Randall Terry remind anybody else of a young Charles Nelson Reilly?

[Clara Lou]

Oh, please. Get over yourself and sell your stock in Reynolds Aluminum.
Bravo, MH!

[Peach]

Thanks for posting that!

Trinity_Tx has put in untold number of hours digesting court documents and debunking the near record level conspiracy theories surrounding this matter. Kudos!

[malakhi]

Second, those radicals are NOT really as conservative as they think. They feel true passion for only ONE ISSUE. They basically ignore all others, and play at scorched-Earth tactic to achieve it, as we have seen. Even when they get what they want (which requires INCREASED government involvement with private lives on most levels), they scream for MORE, and repeat their threats to stay home.

One must ask, where is all this passion, activism, and effort on, say, taxes? Social Security? The furshlugginer WAR, for the luvva Mike? Where's the calls for congress and the President to work weekends and allnighters to fix the budget, or to repair Eminent Domain laws? To repeal patently anti-Constitutional gun laws?

(sound of crickets chirping)

We simply cannot continue to have the entire GOP and conservative agenda shunted aside at the whim of an extreme fringe with more decibels than numbers. In this particular issue, it has probably damaged chances to get anything else done, and possibly the chance to continue the reforms begun after 2006/8.

I was in the process of writing a post, but you just said it better than I could.

If anyone is interested in starting a Free Republic Sanity Caucus (by that or some less controversial name), I suggest we start a ping list, and would be happy to volunteer to do so. If you were pinged to this post, I copied your screen name from among the rational posts on this thread.

[Clara Lou]

Is it just me, or does Randall Terry remind anybody else of a young Charles Nelson Reilly?
Well, they both make me laugh. CNR was funny,though.

[Chad Fairbanks]

Trinity_Tx has put in untold number of hours digesting court documents and debunking the near record level conspiracy theories surrounding this matter.

Well, I've heard that Nazis are really great record keepers (Just Kidding, Trinity_Tx!) Bwaaaaahahahahahahaha

[steve-b]

There's no satisfying that radical base. That's why I don't understand by Jeb or the president even tried.

After things calm down a bit, they may well decide that the best way to do damage control is to abandon any attempt to appease the unappeasable.

[gentlestrength]

oh great...they're just announcing something suspicious outside the Federal building and the bomb squad has been brought in.

Civil disobedience should be PEACEFUL, not violent.

We are of two kingdoms, visible and invisible. And if it hurts you to the core to see an innocent life being taken, you still have no right to murder to protect that life.