With all due respects, verse 32-44 of John 6 talks about the will of the Father.
”Joh 15:16 … he was speaking of the apostles he had chosen, which had nothing to do with salvation. “
Well, this is in the middle of one of Jesus’ most famous text; “I am the vine you are the vinedresser”. If Jesus was talking just to his apostles you might as well ripped John 15 out of your Bible. For that matter didn’t Jesus just talked to His disciples all the time? Sorry, this is a poor interpretation of scripture in my mind.
”actually it says, ordained. And one is ordained to eternal life because God saw who would believe and who would not (1Pet.1:2)”
Ordained like the other eight times this word is used in the New Testament: Mat_28:16, “Into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them”; that is, previously appointed - before his death; Luk_7:8, “For I also am a man set under authority”; appointed, or designated as a soldier, to be under the authority of another; Act_15:2, “They determined that Paul and Barnabas, etc., should go to Jerusalem”; Act_22:10, “It shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do”; Act_23:23, “And when they appointed him a day,” etc.: Rom_13:1, “the powers that be are ordained of God; 1Co_16:15?
I’ve read several Arminians commentaries tonight on this verse trying to explain it away. Some say Luke used the wrong term here. Others said it was a poor choice of words. None of them did a very good job.
Well, you have given the typical calvinist proof-texts. Ignoring Jn.12:32 where it says that Christ will draw all men to him. Ignoring in Acts 17:30 that all men are commanded to repent. No, imagine Peter telling the Lord Jesus that God really didn't want all men to be saved (2Pet.3:9) and that in fact, God does take pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezek.33:11, Jonah 4)
I think I have an easier time explaining these few verses then you’ll ever have explaining chapters (even books) of the Old Testament where God commanded the people to slaughter the inhabitants, God rained fire up cities, God flooded the earth, God sent plagues upon the people, and where God says:
Zep 1:12 "It will come about at that time That I will search Jerusalem with lamps, And I will punish the men Who are stagnant in spirit, Who say in their hearts, 'The LORD will not do good or evil!'
This is the "God of Love" that is identified in scripture. You focus on a part and ignore the whole. Doesn’t seem in my mind God wants all men saved since He didn't tell Joshua to go into the promise land and convert the heathens. Don’t you think He would do so if He really wanted it? It’s God’s sovereignty that the Arminians ignore.
This is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son and believeth on him, may have everlasting life, and I will raise him on the last day (that is referring back to vs.39)
So what part of vs.40 is confusing you or don't you just like the fact that it is too clear and knocks your Jn.6 proof texts right off the map?
”Joh 15:16 … he was speaking of the apostles he had chosen, which had nothing to do with salvation. “ Well, this is in the middle of one of Jesus’ most famous text; “I am the vine you are the vinedresser”. If Jesus was talking just to his apostles you might as well ripped John 15 out of your Bible. For that matter didn’t Jesus just talked to His disciples all the time? Sorry, this is a poor interpretation of scripture in my mind.
The part in which He had chosen them refers to them, that we understand that He is the vine, refers to us later, but does not change the immediate meaning of the verse, Christ is speaking to His apostles.
And ye shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning (vs.15:27)
”actually it says, ordained. And one is ordained to eternal life because God saw who would believe and who would not (1Pet.1:2)” Ordained like the other eight times this word is used in the New Testament: Mat_28:16, “Into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them”; that is, previously appointed - before his death; Luk_7:8, “For I also am a man set under authority”; appointed, or designated as a soldier, to be under the authority of another; Act_15:2, “They determined that Paul and Barnabas, etc., should go to Jerusalem”; Act_22:10, “It shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do”; Act_23:23, “And when they appointed him a day,” etc.: Rom_13:1, “the powers that be are ordained of God; 1Co_16:15? I’ve read several Arminians commentaries tonight on this verse trying to explain it away. Some say Luke used the wrong term here. Others said it was a poor choice of words. None of them did a very good job.
What Arminian commentaries do you have?
What is the problem?
Being ordained for something means that God foreknew who would believe and elected them in Christ.
No problem with that.
Well, you have given the typical calvinist proof-texts. Ignoring Jn.12:32 where it says that Christ will draw all men to him. Ignoring in Acts 17:30 that all men are commanded to repent. No, imagine Peter telling the Lord Jesus that God really didn't want all men to be saved (2Pet.3:9) and that in fact, God does take pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezek.33:11, Jonah 4) I think I have an easier time explaining these few verses then you’ll ever have explaining chapters (even books) of the Old Testament where God commanded the people to slaughter the inhabitants, God rained fire up cities, God flooded the earth, God sent plagues upon the people, and where God says: Zep 1:12 "It will come about at that time That I will search Jerusalem with lamps, And I will punish the men Who are stagnant in spirit, Who say in their hearts, 'The LORD will not do good or evil!' This is the "God of Love" that is identified in scripture. You focus on a part and ignore the whole. Doesn’t seem in my mind God wants all men saved since He didn't tell Joshua to go into the promise land and convert the heathens. Don’t you think He would do so if He really wanted it? It’s God’s sovereignty that the Arminians ignore.
Not at all.
We recognize that grace rejected results in condemnation and judgement (Jn.3:36)
God always gave ample time for repentence for those He had to destroy (Ezek.33:11) including Israel (which will be restored-Jer.31:31, Heb.8:8)
So, Arminians do not deny the wrath and justice of God, But believe according to the scriptures God is longsuffering and wants none to perish, and all to repent (2Pe.3:9, Acts.17:30) but it is men's will that rejects God, not God rejecting man (and ye would not-Matt.23:37)