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To: P-Marlowe; xzins; drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; ...
What must I do to be saved?

Certainly a good question, and one upon which we disagree as a matter of perspective.

It's like asking "what must I do to grow old?"

The Arminian would answer, "Eat healthy foods, don't smoke, exercise regularly, see your doctor annually, avoid extremes, be happy, and don't walk in front of a bus."

The Calvinist would answer, "Eat healthy foods, don't smoke, exercise regularly, see your doctor annually, avoid extremes, be happy, don't walk in front of a bus...AND all these things will originate with and be accomplished by the grace of God alone who has ordained for you (and all creatures) from before the foundation of the world every day and minute and moment of your life, whether you acknowledge this fact or not. Because ultimately God creates everything, knows everything, and if He wants something, it is already cemented in time and space by His pre-existing will for that time and space."

Arminians demand this supernatural working of God's being be understood completely by man. Scripture explains we can never understand completely.

But that shouldn't excuse us from making the mistake of demanding autonomy when God clearly says we have none, and that ultimately salvation, as well as the length of our lives, depend not on our carnal, fallen nature, but upon His unerring, unbounded plan for His creation alone.

If something occurs, God wanted it to occur. If something doesn't occur, God didn't want it to occur. The alternative is meaningless from the perspective of the God who has revealed Himself in Scripture.

"Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you." -- Joshua 23:15

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." -- Isaiah 45:7.

"I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right." -- Isaiah 45:19.

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure." -- Isaiah 46:9-10.

God's will is ultimately behind every stroke of life as we know it -- every leaf that falls, every baby born, every hiccup and heartbeat.

"Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." -- Mark 9:23

And if we can believe, it is only through the gift of God's grace upon the fallen sinner.

First grace; then belief. Otherwise it's a work of man's ability to believe; something none of us has unless and until He turns us from darkness towards the light.

Having believed in both perspectives, I can say with my own certainty, life is surer, happier, more confident and less stressful when I understand that everything -- my salvation, my family's salvation and every day our lives -- is secured by God's steady hand alone who has promised us eternal peace because His Son has counted us among His sheep.

But life is not one day longer than He wills, regardless of buses, bullets or Atkins.

17 posted on 01/21/2005 12:35:16 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Arminians demand this supernatural working of God's being be understood completely by man. Scripture explains we can never understand completely.

Michael Horton, in his White Horse Inn series Reforming Worship, put it this way: God is a machine, predictable. If we do x, God will do y. God is reacting to what we do.

The image is one of God struggling to keep up...

18 posted on 01/21/2005 12:40:28 PM PST by Lexinom (www.revotewa.com - Go DINO! www.illegitimategovernor.com)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; xzins
It's like asking "what must I do to grow old?"

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, Just grow old and thou shalt maybe you just might be saved...

19 posted on 01/21/2005 12:52:10 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
don't smoke

I don't want to get in any religious arguements this morning but I don't understand peoples obsession with telling Christians that smoking will send them to hell. They always use that scripture about the body being a temple but they fail to read the whole passage and put things into perspective. What that passage plainly speaks about is fornication and things like that. I would think homosexuality, maschocism, sadism, promiscuity and things like that is what God is talking about. The passage says what you put in your mouth will not condemn you, its sins you commit against your own body that will condemn you. There was a man whom our pastor talked to who was saved but he had been told as long as he smoked, he couldn't go to heaven. The pastor asked him who had told him that. He said smoking will not send you to hell. It might make you smell like hell but it won't send you to hell. I think people do a terrible disservice to other people like the Pharisees did, when they tell people that some human thing they do like overeating or smoking or taking a drink or dancing is going to send them to hell. Its just not true. God looks at the heart. He knows the human fleshly part of man does things that He would not do but we are not as good as God. Man has weaknesses. Overeating is just as much of a sin as smoking. And if that is the case, you want to see a bunch of sinners, pastors included, just visit a Southern Baptist church durring homecoming. There is a whole lot of eating going on. In the bible, they drank wine, too. And no it wasn't grape juice. It was the real stuff. There are too many references to wine and its effects to not come to the conclusion it was the alcoholic kind. The bible warns of excessive wine, not having a drink; big difference. And there is absolutely no reference in the bible of smoking. None whatsoever. God warns in the bible about man making his own rules and then trying to make people believe they are Gods rules. What makes certain things a sin is if they mean more to you than God. Like not going to worship because you can't smoke for an hour. Then that smoking becomes a sin. But for people to convince other people you can't be saved as long as you smoke is keeping a soul from God and will be held against you at judgement. Smoking, eating for pleasure instead of just nourishment, having a glass of wine, dancing: those are things humans do for enjoyment and God said He wants man to enjoy life. God only looks at the heart. Thats a fact.

419 posted on 01/24/2005 5:59:08 AM PST by beckysueb (God bless America and President Bush.)
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