Posted on 01/21/2005 6:34:28 AM PST by P-Marlowe
He didn't?
and this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day
Sounds like those who saw the Son in that generation were all savable if they believed on the Son.
There are some very black and white scriptures in John and only one interpretation if you're willing to accept it. It is supported in John ? where Jesus said, "You did not choose me but I chose you." and in Acts 13 and other places. If you don't accept it you either have to ignore those verses like I did or you have to invent some crazy reasoning to support your theology. I've never invented crazy reasoning.
Really, only context dropping.
Yes, Jn.15:16 states that Christ chose the Apostles and has nothing to do with salvation.
In fact, one of those chosen was not even saved (Jn.6:70)
Interpretation: For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes and I wish to give life at random to whoever choose me.
Joh 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
Interpretation: "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. But let me clarify that I chose you only if you choose me. If you don't choose me then I never really chose you. You have to make the first choice for me to chose you..
Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
Interpretation: "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. But the Father gives me everyone and there are a few who I do cast out like Judas so don't pay too close attention to this.
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Interpretation: When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
X-"Makes perfect sense to me."
I'm sure it does.
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me, for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (Jn.5:46-47)
No. That is how you interpret the scriptures but that is not what the scripture says.
Joh 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
Yes, and why does the Father give them to the Son, because they believe in him,
Verse. 6:40 gives you what the Father's will was, that every one that seeth the Son believeth on him.
Context is a proof-text killer.
Moreover, Christ goes on to state, But there are some that believe not, For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who would betray him (Jn.6:64) and it was this knowledge that led to the Father's drawing some and not others.
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1Pe.1:2)
Yes, to obey God is always the wise thing to do (Jn.6:29, 1Sam.15:22) but one cannot take credit for it (Lk.17:10)
Ofcourse, it is always nice to think yourself 'special' that God chose you and not someone else, and then pretend to be humble about it (Lk.18:10-11)
Then by all means let's get the context...
Joh 6:37-40 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out....This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
1) The Father gives us to our Lord Jesus
2) Jesus will not cast us out
3) It is the will of the Father that ALL THAT HE GIVES will not be lost
4) It is the will that everyone who the Father gives will believe in our Lord Jesus and have eternal life
Nowhere in this "context" does it say we make a "choice" for God. You left out verse 39.
Amen. Precisely.
The scripture is on our side.
Vs. 6:40 says that the Father wanted every man that saw Christ to be saved-period.
That they weren't was because they would not believe, not could not believe.
And ye will not come to me that ye might have life (Jn.5:40)
You want to make such a big deal about monergism vs synergism, well, when what decisions are you making now, as a born again Christian, do you have to ability to choose to resist or obey God?
Does God now ask for your co-operation now exhorting you to yield to the Holy Spirit?(Rom.6:16)
If your walk is by faith? (2Cor.5:7), can you claim credit or do you just receive rewards for your 'works'at the Judgement seat of Christ(Rom.14:10)
If you have no responsibility to make decisions in yielding, then is God responsible for your sins since He is willing them to happen.
As for Lazarus, even Pink rejected that analogy.
The fact is even physically dead men are alive somewhere are they not, that is they are thinking, reasoning, feeling creatures even though their bodies are dead?(Lk.16)
Moreover, God does speak to unbelievers and they talk back to him (Gen.4, 21)
Finally, as it states in Rom.1, that the unbeliever does know God but does not want to respond to his grace and would rather turn to his own lusts.
So, your view of Total Depravity is not Biblical.
Total depravity simply means that man is helpless and must depend on God for his salvation, hence the entire plan of salvation is of God (Eph.2) which God initiates to man, not wanting any to perish, but all to be saved (Tim.2:4, 2Pet.3:9).
For further details on those verses see Spurgeon for 1Tim.2:4 and Calvin for 2Pet.3:9, where they actually interpet the scripture as scripture and not philosophical double-talk.
Sanctification comes in three stages.
First, salvation by faith which is an event (Jn.3), then spiritual growth which is a process (Heb.5) then ultimate sanctification when we receive our resurrection bodies (Rom.8).
What you see in Rom.4 is Abraham being saved, in James 5 his growth into 'friend of God' and hero of the faith. The Justification of Rom.4 is for salvation and to God, the Justification in James 2 is to be seen by men as proof of your salvation.
As for God revealing Himself to everyone read Psa.19 and Rom.1.
The only one confused here is you. Christ shed his blood as the ultimate sacrifice. That is without question. But if we have to do nothing to accept that sacrifice on our behalf, then everyone is saved, which is obviously false in light of this passage:
Matthew 7:14 -
Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
And if you are trying to take the "limited atonement" route, you have some serious issues with teachings of the New Testament.
1 Timothy 2:4 - Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
If only the "elect" are to be saved, why does the Bible say here that God would have all men, or would want all men, to be saved?
Once again, you are misrepresenting my words and twisting things to make an argument. I hope you realize that many of us on here have caught on to this, and I for one refuse to continue discussions with you. Unless you decide to stop twisting other's arguments, then I have nothing to say to you.
The entire passage talks about the process by which we are chosen, saved and secure in Christ. There is not a salvation message in 37, 38, and 40; and an eternal security message in verse 39. You chided me about context. Let's keep it within the context of the passage. This is consistent with:
Joh 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit..."
and again
Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
and again
Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
All believers are chosen by God the Father, given to God the Son, who protects and take care of us. We can ONLY come to the Son if the Father draws us and the Father must NOT draw everyone according to the passages. This is repeated over and over in the gospel a few of the verses I'm using here. I could just imagine Peter saying to our Lord Jesus, "Well, technically we made a decision to follow you." Oy veh!
From your perspective if God's chosen ones are those who accepts our Lord Jesus, then are you saying God doesn't know who His chosen ones are? If God in his omnipotence does know, than Christ really came for His elect and died only for them. Hence you believe in limited atonement. If God doesn't know who His chosen ones are than you're an Open Theist, limiting the powers of God.
You have not answered my questions. When were your sins forgiven? When you believed, or when you were baptised? What is it that remits your sins? Christ's shed Blood, or the waters of baptism?
I never said one need do nothing to receive the sacrifice Christ made. The Bible says you must believe. Whether or not that is classified as a work is not the topic here. What is the topic of our discussion is whether or not baptism is a necessary requirement to receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life. If I understand your position correctly, you are saying that if a person is not baptised, for whatever reason, he is still lost in his sins.
You want to make Matt. 7:14 an oblique reference to the necessity of baptism to eternal life. As for Limited Atonement, whether you like it or not, in reality it is limited in its application. You would say that man limits it, I say that God is the One who limited the Atonement. I reject the idea that the Atonement was universal and potential, needing man's response to be actual and efficacious for him. I believe that the Atonement was specific, real, and an actual satisfaction of the wages of sin due for those whom God specifically intended to save, i.e. The Elect, whom God chose and draws to Himself by means of the Gospel.
So, rather than trying to dismiss me by saying I'm confused, please answer my questions.
Verse 39 is speaking of security, and vs 40 of the Father's will of who should be saved.
That is very clear from the scriptures themselves.
Joh 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit..."
Yes, he was speaking of the apostles he had chosen, which had nothing to do with salvation.
and again Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Yes, and the reason they are drawn is because they did not believe.(Jn.5:43)
and again Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
actually it says, ordained.
And one is ordained to eternal life because God saw who would believe and who would not (1Pet.1:2)
All believers are chosen by God the Father, given to God the Son, who protects and take care of us. We can ONLY come to the Son if the Father draws us and the Father must NOT draw everyone according to the passages. This is repeated over and over in the gospel a few of the verses I'm using here. I could just imagine Peter saying to our Lord Jesus, "Well, technically we made a decision to follow you." Oy veh!
Well, you have given the typical calvinist proof-texts.
Ignoring Jn.12:32 where it says that Christ will draw all men to him.
Ignoring in Acts 17:30 that all men are commanded to repent.
No, imagine Peter telling the Lord Jesus that God really didn't want all men to be saved (2Pet.3:9) and that in fact, God does take pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezek.33:11, Jonah 4)
From your perspective if God's chosen ones are those who accepts our Lord Jesus, then are you saying God doesn't know who His chosen ones are?
No, Jesus says he knew would not believe in him (Jn.6:64)
If God in his omnipotence does know,
I think you mean omniscience
than Christ really came for His elect and died only for them. Hence you believe in limited atonement. If God doesn't know who His chosen ones are than you're an Open Theist, limiting the powers of God.
No, God foreknows all who will believe and all who won't.
Those who will believe are predestinated to be in Christ, and those who do not, are following the destiny they chose, to remain in spiritual death and stand in their works.
The issue is not the power of God, the issue is the love of God. (Jn.3:16)
And it is the Love of God that the Calvinists limit, as well as the omniscience of God, which is able to see not only the necessary future, but a certain future with contingents as well.
If that is so, then God owes it to them to ordain them to eternal life, because of their faith, which is implied that they themselves made the choice.
Ignoring in Acts 17:30 that all men are commanded to repent.
God has commanded many things that man does not do. Many things that man is incapable of doing apart from Christ. God has the Sovereign right to set forth His standards, regardless of man's ability or inability to keep them. This does not add to your case, nor does it detract from mine. God commands men everywhere to repent. Most don't. To whose detriment is that? Not God's! When men don't obey God, they only confirm the Righteousness of His Judgment against them, which is to His Glory.
Those who will believe are predestinated to be in Christ, and those who do not, are following the destiny they chose, to remain in spiritual death and stand in their works.
This is nothing more than God rewarding right actions, foreseen before time. How is this different that what James says in his Epistle?:
My brothers, do not have the faith of our Lord Christ, the Lord of glory, with respecter of faces. For if there comes a gold-fingered man in fancy clothing into your assembly, and if there also comes in a poor man in shabby clothing, and if you have respect to him who has the fancy clothing and say to him, You sit here in a good place, and say to the poor, You stand there, or sit here under my footstool; Did you not make a difference among yourselves and became judges with evil thoughts? (Jam 2:1-4)
Or, what Jesus Himself stated:
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Mat 5:46-48)
Jesus specifically warned against acting in that fashion, and by stating the the Father in Heaven is perfect, shows that the Father DOES NOT act in that fashion with regard to men. Yet you say that the Father chooses the Elect based on their foreseen actions, in contravention of Jesus own teaching, and James teaching regarding respecting of persons, and showing deferrential treatment to certain people.
A respecter of persons deals with others based on what they have done to benefit him, or what they might potentially do to benefit him, if he shows them special treatment. The Bible specifically says that God is NOT a respecter of persons. Therefore, God's choice, while based on Foreknowledge, is NOT based on Foreknowledge as YOU define it, i.e. foreseen actions, or foreseen faith. Your defiinition makes Him a respecter of persons. Foreknowledge is the intimate love that God has for the objects of His choosing, based not on them, but on God's Will, which He purposed beforehand. That you can't fathom why He would do so, if not for what He foresees them doing, does not give you the right to redefine the terms.
You must let God be God. He has not revealed His reasons. I can accept that, and thank God that He chose me, not for my actions, not for my faith, but because He set His love on me, and chose me IN SPITE of what is in me. I KNOW I don't deserve it. And knowing that, there is NO WAY that I can then believe that He chose me because He saw I would believe. Such belief is a contradiction, not only of the Nature of God, but of the nature of man.
Hellllooooo! This is exactly what you said: "I put a million dollars in your bank account."
Now, you aparently realize that such an analogy would teach a universalism so you needed a mulligan to change your analogy. I can't help it if you either really don't know what you believe or are unable to find an analogy to fit your theology. I can't help it if you need several milligans. But, accusing me of not dealing with the analogy as give just makes you look weak.
***By their fruits will you know them!***
Exactly. Quit hiding and just admit that you needed to change your analogy and take a mulligan.
You have said some pretty outrageous things on this thread and made some rather serious accusations without merit. Sadly, this is what I usually expect from Arminians when whey get hopelessly cornered by the things they say.
In the service of the Lord,
Christian.
It is in the nature of God to love His creation. He didn't set out to create some men specifically and completely for destruction, even though He knew before He created them that that would be the case. But He cannot forego His Justice, His Righteousness, or His Holiness, or indeed even His own Glory. Ultimately everything God does is to manifest and show forth His Glory. Therefore, He sets forth His Standards, and His requirements, so that Man is without excuse before God for his sins, and helpless before Him. It is Just and Righteous that sin is punished, and that Mankind has no standing before God but what he Himself gives to them. God Himself states that no flesh can or shall glory in His Presence. It is to His Glory, in some way that we cannot fathom, to save and redeem a remnant, a portion of Mankind, and not all of them. That does not negate the statement that He desires all men to be saved. If it would increase His Glory to do so, He would do it.
It is hard for us to conceive of How choosing some and not others Glorifies God, but it is not our standard or understanding that He operates and moves by, but His own. As His Children, His redeemed ones, our desire should be to do whatever Glorifies Him, and to believe whatever Glorifies Him. He is Worthy of all Glory.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Rom 11:33-36)
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